Neutralization

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You: What's your stance on abortion?

Stranger: Hey

Stranger: Why do you need to know?

You: Just curious.

Stranger: Well, mine is absolutely non-religious

Stranger: I'm atheist you see

You: So is mine.

You: OMG me too!

Stranger: And I'd say that it all depends on the situation

You: When is it wrong?

Stranger: If she is pregnant with a baby which could ruin her life, she should get an abortion

Stranger: A fetus isn't a fully developed human conciousness

Stranger: Thus, it's just about as big of a deal as an animal

You: What do you mean by "human consciousness"?

Stranger: That's my stance anyway

You: Do you mean self-awareness?

Stranger: It's cannot think, it does not have a personality, and it won't mind.

Stranger: The crucial bit is "it"

You: Fetuses have gender.

Stranger: But we do not refer to them as "He" or "She"

You: We do if we know the gender.

Stranger: Generally fetus is refered to as "it"

Stranger: Either way, all depends on the situation

You: Only if the sex is unknown.

You: Then again, we call newborns "it" if we don't know the gender.

Stranger: *Siiigh*

Stranger: Situation is all. That's my opinion

You: So, are you saying that a fetus has no rights because the fetus does not possess the capability for self-awareness or rational thought?

Stranger: Give me a second

Stranger: This kind of thing is morally grey

You: It is the killing of one human being by another. Homicide, plain and simple.

Stranger: Why do you ask my opinion when you have yours?

You: You are using an arbitrary psychological distinction to deny a segment of the population their respect and dignity as human beings.

You: It's not an opinion that abortion is homicide

Stranger: Just on a side note

Stranger: http://www.cracked.com/article_18405_7-insane-ways-music-affects-body-according-to-science.html

Stranger: Whoa

Stranger: But anyway

You: i was gonna read that but it didnt look interesting

You: hom⋅i⋅cide  [hom-uh-sahyd, hoh-muh-] Show IPA
–noun
1. the killing of one human being by another.
2. a person who kills another; murderer.

Stranger: You know, the more complicated words you use the more complicated the answer is going to become

You: Homicide is a very simple word.

Stranger: Genius is in simplicity

Stranger: You are using an arbitrary psychological distinction to deny a segment of the population their respect and dignity as human beings.

Stranger: I was refering to that

You: That is true.

You: You say that the offspring in utero is less developed intellectually, and, thus, is ethically irrelevant.

You: I see that as appalling and discriminatory.

Stranger: Hey, to each his own.

You: If we go down that road, Dr. Peter Singer is correct in saying infants have no rights.

Stranger: I have never heard of Dr. Peter Singer

Stranger: Besides

Stranger: His opinion is irrevalent.

Stranger: Every case is unique

You: It is a fact that human newborns are not self-aware.

You: In every case, the offspring is a living member of the species homo sapiens.

You: And, thus, every abortion is homicide.

Stranger: Thankyou, stranger, you are confusing me more and more as we go along. When we started this conversation I had a pretty clear idea in my mind, but now it is long lost

Stranger: Thanks.

You: I'm just clarifying that, if you're going to say "A fetus isn't a fully developed human conciousness", that would apply to newborns as well

Stranger: Actually, now that I think ofit

Stranger: it*

You: Nothing psychological changes at birth.

Stranger: I think it is wrong to have an abortion only after 23 weeks of pregnancy

You: Why?

You: What changes then that makes the 22 week fetus unimportant?

Stranger: I think it is after that amount of time that a Fetus can survive without the help of the mother

Stranger: I'm not entirely sure though

You: The point of viability changes culturally.

Stranger: *Sigh*

Stranger: On an off-topic note

You: In Africa, where the medicine is not as advanced, viability is later.

Stranger: Why are you on this website

You: Because I felt like it.

Stranger: Only 5% of people on here are not pubescant males who ask for CAM2CAM!!!!

You: When artificial wombs are perfected, viability will be at conception.

Stranger: Asking them about abortion would be rather stupid

Stranger: Artificial wombs

You: Yeah, it's my horny teen detterant

Stranger: Wait until the church hears of that.

You: What do you mean?

Stranger: What do you think would be Catholic's reaction to a synthetic womb?

You: No clue. They aren't mentioned in the Bible.

Stranger: Hell, it might go to the point of another Schism.

Stranger: It'll be Northern Ireland, only all over the world

Stranger: Future here we come.

You: LOL

Stranger: I'm glad you find that amusing

Stranger: You won't be that happy when a mad catholic will try to fuck you over because of this.

You: So, as medical technology increases and viability gets pushed further and further back, will embryos magically become valuable?

You: What?

Stranger: Nevermind

Stranger: Erm

Stranger: Who knows.

Stranger: Time will tell

Stranger: Right now I'm just going to live my life

Stranger: They tell me that these are the best years of my life

You: Nothing changes philosophically at viability.

Stranger: Right.

Stranger: That helped.

Stranger: Why don't you just leave the topic alone and use a condom or something else

You: I'm a virgin.

Stranger: So am I.

Stranger: I suppose it shows

You: But I don't leave it alone because over a third of my generation was aborted.

Stranger: We're talking on a random website, about abortion.

You: I used to be a fetus.

You: I take it personally.

Stranger: Most people did.

Stranger: Erm

Stranger: Well

Stranger: Good luck with that.

Stranger: I choose the simple aproach of not caring

Stranger: Until it affects my life anyway

Stranger: Besides, if you take it personally you'll be biased

Stranger: Thus your opinion will be of no value in a debate

You: Are you a guy or girl?

Stranger: Thus it's not worth it

Stranger: Give it an intelligent guess.

You: I have done that as well.

You: Because abortion is homicide, it cannot be tolerated without a damn good reason.

Stranger: The use of a curse indicated emotion

Stranger: Thus you are still very much biased

Stranger: Thus the opinion is irrevalent.

Stranger: Seriously

Stranger: Why do you trouble yourself with this

You: That's some of the worst logic I've read.

Stranger: Hey, better than none

You: My argument can damn well be a fucking good argument, and logic doesn't give a shit how many goddamn cursewords I use.

Stranger: Nice one.

Stranger: It's just that you didn't swear up to that point

Stranger: But anyway

Stranger: Huh, I'm completely dry.

You: Dry?

Stranger: By the way, I take it you are a girl

Stranger: Dry, out of arguments, out of words

Stranger: That kind of thing

You: You take it wrong.

Stranger: What the

Stranger: So you are a guy who cares about abortion

Stranger: This is just outright weird.

You: Hey, half of the fetuses are dudes.

Stranger: Who GIVES TWO SHITS?

You: I suggest you research Dr. Peter Singer. He uses your arguments and says if parents give birth to a disabled infant, they can just say "Oops, doover" and kill him or her

Stranger: It's like you are going to get an abortion

Stranger: Do I sound like the kind of guy who cares about what Dr, Peter Singer says?

Stranger: Dr.*

You: No, and I'm also not going to rape my daughter. I can say both are wrong.

Stranger: Hell of an answer.

You: You should. It's where your premises lead to

Stranger: Alright, let me re-phrase

Stranger: Do I sound like the kind of guy who cares about where my premises lead to?

You: I assumed, as an atheist, you would be logical.

You: I'm sorry.

Stranger: Jeesh

Stranger: I am atheist is simply because I realized what a load of nonsense religion is

Stranger: A guy lived in a "Big fish" for 3 days

You: You should also realize what a load of nonsense infanticide is.

Stranger: An old man went up the mountain, talked to a burning bush, and got commandments from "God"

Stranger: Why should I?

Stranger: I'm 15, why should I care?

You: Because you're a human being, and you should try to not promote evil

Stranger: Evil

Stranger: Hah

Stranger: Everyone is evil in some way

Stranger: But you'll never know

Stranger: Anyway

Stranger: Erm

Stranger: Right, abortion

Stranger: I just came up with an answer to the original question

Stranger: I do not have an opinion

Stranger: It's up to them to decide

You: Up to who?

Stranger: Up to the ones involved

You: Should infanticide be up to the people involved too?

Stranger: How am I supposed to know?

Stranger: I'm 15.

You: It should be common sense that it is wrong to kill a newborn baby.

Stranger: Hey, if it will be up to me I'll avoid getting that fetus in in the first place

Stranger: Kids, nah.

You: There are 3700 babies being aborted every day. That's more than 9/11. It's not something that you can ignore.

Stranger: I don't care too much about 9/11 either

Stranger: I live MY life and let others worry about theirs

You: Do you care about the Holocaust?

Stranger: Nope

Stranger: People die everyday

You: Well, YOUR life began at fertilization.

You: Does that make murder okay?

Stranger: Just because some prick decided that a particular kind of people doesn't make them special

You: There's a difference between homicide and natural death.

Stranger: First world decided that 3rd world shall die of starvation

Stranger: Yeah, being cheated out of money sure is natural.

You: If we went over there with guns and shot them, we'd get arrested.

You: There's a difference.

Stranger: The difference is in politics

Stranger: They're doing pretty much the same thing, only sparring the AMMO

You: Okay, let's say there's a hobo named George in NYC.

You: I live in Ohio.

You: If I drive over and shoot him, I'm arrested.

Stranger: Toughg luck to George, he probably fucked up somewhere along the line

Stranger: Tough*

You: If he dies of cancer, I don't.

Stranger: And?

Stranger: There is a difference between a hobo and a continent

You: People die. That's a fact of life.

You: That doesn't mean that murder is okay.

Stranger: Aha

Stranger: Well

Stranger: Thankyou for a brilliant conversation

Stranger: C ya.

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Message Redacted

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You: What's your stance on abortion?

Stranger: shouldnt be allowed :P

You: Should it ever?

Stranger: only when the girl is too young ;)

You: Why shouldn't it be allowed otherwise?

Stranger: no good future for the kid :)

You: No, why SHOULDN'T it be allowed if she's old enough?

Stranger: Ah

Stranger: Well more options for her to raise her child

Stranger: Through adoption etc

You: So?

Stranger: You're a tough one, hehe :p

You: I mean, a young girl can also place her kid for adoption. So there must be something else.

You: What about abortion makes it immoral?

Stranger: Yeah but it's quite the experience for the young girl to bare a child

Stranger: and then take it away

You: What if she's one of those girls that only finds out she's pregnant at birth?

You: Can she murder the born baby?

Stranger: How often does that happen really?

You: There's a whole TV series called I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant.

Stranger: In the U.S?

Stranger: Didn't know

You: Yes.

You: On TLC.

Stranger: But anyway, well you can't "murder" a born baby

Stranger: That's cruel

You: Why?

Stranger: Cause I don't consider it a human being when it's still inside a womb

You: It's the same kid as before birth.

Stranger: Outside I do

You: If it's not a human being, what is it?

You: ••••••••@•••••.••• msg me if my connection times out

You: IT has to be something.

Stranger: Well it's still human ofcourse but I don't consider it one emotionally

Stranger: if you get my drift

You: No, I don't.

Stranger: For me it hasn't lived yet

Stranger: What's your stance on abortion anyway?

You: You are biologically inaccurate.

You: It is a living human being from the moment of conception and you know that.

You: An organism with human parents and human DNA cannot be anything else but human.

Stranger: Yeah, well ofcourse

You: And dead things don't grow or need food.

Stranger: Still, do you consider it alive in the womb?

Stranger: Do you think it has a "soul"?

Stranger: any awareness?

You: I do not believe in souls.

Stranger: Hence "soul" :p

You: But I acknowledge that the unborn child is as human as you and I.

You: By awareness, it depends on what you mean.

You: Conscious self-awareness comes 18 months after birth.

Stranger: Will it notice being aborted? Does it know it's inside the womb

Stranger: I don't think so?

You: So, in that sense, no.

Stranger: But I still don't know your stance on abortion

Stranger: Guess you're against it?

You: If it's a choice between the baby dying or the baby and the mother dying, I would allow it as a last resort.

You: Otherwise, no.

You: I'm against it.

You: If you're going to bring in "will it notice being aborted", it would be fine to kill newborns, the comatose, the sleeping, and fine to kill you quickly with a painless bullet between the eyes.

Stranger: Any religious reason for it? Or plainly moral issues with it?

You: I'm an atheist, so only moral.

Stranger: The difference between the baby and the others is that the previous one never was aware of anything

You: What do you mean?

Stranger: The comatose, I assume they weren't in coma 18 months after birth?

You: Why does that matter?

You: You asked if it would notice being killed.

You: The answer is no regardless of its history.

Stranger: That's your answer, not mine..

You: Stranger: Will it notice being aborted? Does it know it's inside the womb
Stranger: I don't think so?

Stranger: Ah, I thought you meant something else... I didn't expect such a conversation anyway

Stranger: I don't think I can explain it why it matters, it was just how I was raised to think this way

You: You are making an arbitrary psychological distinction that would depersonify newborns in order to discriminate against the unborn.

Stranger: Hmmh

You: Your belief system fails to account for premature infants as well.

You: The only different between a premature baby and an unborn baby is his or her physical location.

You: Neither location nor level of psychological development justify the wholesale slaughter of millions of innocent human beings.

You: I hope you will give this some thought, but I have work to get to.

You: Toodle-oo!

Stranger: See you :)

Stranger: Or well :P

Stranger: Bye! :p

You: u have my email if u wanna talk more

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Mambo

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

Stranger: whale

Stranger: francis bacon

You: womb

Stranger: year 11

You: edward cullen

You: 65 cakes

Stranger: boner

Stranger: hes mine bitch

You: do not eat the cheese curds

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You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You: What's your opinion on abortion?

Stranger: hmm i wouldnt do it

Stranger: but i dont mind other people doin git

Stranger: *doing

You: Why wouldn't you do it?

Stranger: cause i think its a murder

You: So you don't mind people murdering other people?

Stranger: hahahah

Stranger: its their own thing if thy wanna kill their unborn child but i couldnt do that to my unborn child

You: if they wanna kill their born child, are you fine with that too?

Stranger: well ofcours not

You: Why not?

Stranger: cause its really murdering

You: What do you mean by that?

Stranger: well if you murder a born child that is alive... its a murder

Stranger: but its not the same if you kill unborn child

You: The unborn child is not alive?

Stranger: it is, but it has not grown so much yet so it would not be the same

You: What do you mean by that?

Stranger: you know there is the time when you can do abort and after that time you cant?

You: In America, that time is called "birth".

Stranger: really?

You: Yes.

Stranger: you can take abortion any time in the pregnancy time you want?

You: Yep.

Stranger: that is stupid

You: There was partial-birth abortion where you kill the baby when only its head was in the birth canal.

You: But we banned that in 2003.

You: There was a HUGE fight against the ban.

You: The ban was almost declared unconstitutional.

Stranger: thats horrible

Stranger: in here you cant do abortion after some time... but i dont just rmember what was the time

You: They'd deliver the baby breach and then stick scissors into the base of the baby's neck

You: and open the scissors

You: and suck the brains out.

Stranger: you are kidding

You: google it

You: http://jonathanfordlee.com/blog/blogImages/partialBirth02.jpg

Stranger: in here you cant do abortion when the baby is more than 20 weeks old

You: but you can still do other procedures on the same baby as long as you keep him in the womb

You: yeah, supposedly the same here

You: but there's an exception for the mother's health

You: the court defined "health" as including age, familial, and socioeconomic issues.

You: If not getting the abortion would make her unhappy at all, it's okay

You: they basically made a loophole big enough to drive a mack truck through

Stranger: hmm im not sure if i understood all of that

You: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doe_v._Bolton#Broad_definition_of_health

Stranger: why did you even ask me this?

You: It's the leading cause of death here.

Stranger: oh

You: The womb is the most dangerous place on the planet.

Stranger: yeah

You: There have been over 50 million babies murdered through abortion in the US alone since it was legalized 37 years and one day ago.

Stranger: i dont know why people do that

Stranger: i mean they should really start to use condoms

You: Condoms fail.

Stranger: well use some other things then

You: No contraception is foolproof.

You: 60% of abortions here are coerced.

Stranger: well its something people do wrong

You: Yeah.

You: So, why is it okay before 20 weeks?

Stranger: well i dont know

Stranger: i dont like abortion

You: Why don't you like abortion?

Stranger: do you like it then?

You: No, I do not.

You: But my reason for opposing abortion is inconsistent with tolerating its legality.

Stranger: many unfamiliar words there

You: ok

You: i oppose abortion

You: because of the reason i oppose abortion, i cannot be fine with it being legal

Stranger: yeah, well its like that gay people cant get married

You: huh?

You: what does gay ppl getting married have to do with murder?

Stranger: or that they cant give blood

Stranger: oh never mind that

Stranger: how old are you?

You: Why does that matter?

Stranger: it doesnt, i just want to know

You: I have no age.

Stranger: okey

Stranger: do you have sex?

You: All the time.

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The intellectual pebble in the shoe

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You: What is your opinion on abortion?

Stranger: urrm, i duno, i think they should b legal

Stranger: how about u?

You: why?

Stranger: i personally think it is better for the woman, if it comes to it, then she should have the right to have on

Stranger: e

You: do you not care at all for the rights of the child?

Stranger: as a person, and a biologist, i dont think it has rights untill it is born

You: why not?

Stranger: cos it doesnt know its alive, its not living, its part of the mother

You: if its part of the mother, does that mean the mother has 4 arms?

Stranger: well in a sence ye, but thats a pretty week argument

You: do you not know that the fetus has its own blood type?

You: and its own DNA

You: the fetus is a separate organism that is merely using her body for sustenance.

Stranger: so its a paracite?

Stranger: so if i had a tick removed, is that wrong

You: no, because a parasite is, by definition, of another species

You: but lets say it is a parasite

You: if you see a tick on the ground and step on it, is that immoral?

Stranger: i supose, but if i didnt choose to step on it, maybe i just didnt see it there

Stranger: if the mother didnt mean to get pregnant

Stranger: that puts her in a bad postion, she may not b ready for a bady

You: what country do you live in?

Stranger: the UK

You: do you get TLC on the tv?

Stranger: TLC?

You: The Learning Channel, I believe.

Stranger: no, i dont have sky

Stranger: im afraid

You: well, here we have a show called I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant.

You: many times, women get pregnant and never find out until birth

Stranger: honestly? so they dont know they are missing a period every month, or that there being sick most mornings, or that they have doubled in size

You: if she;s not ready for a kid, can she kill the born baby?

Stranger: not

Stranger: no*

You: some women still experience spotty bleeding that can be mistaken for a light period

Stranger: becaurse that is a human being, its actually been born

You: ahhh

You: so the issue is not whether she's ready

You: not whether she can care for the baby

You: but whether the fetus is a human being

Stranger: it is agaisnt the law to kill a human being! if she is not ready, then it can be given up for adoption

You: if the fetus is not a human being, she can have as many abortions as she wants, for any reason.

Stranger: well i never said i think they should give them out for any reason

You: why not?

Stranger: cos it should not be used as contraseption

Stranger: it should b a last option

You: if the fetus isn't human, she should be allowed to get pregnant so she can eat the fetuses

Stranger: for those unable to care for a child

Stranger: eat the fetus, what is wrong with you!?!?!

You: why would that be immoral?

You: it may be gross, but not immoral if the fetus isn't human.

Stranger: i supose

You: we eat non-humans all the time.

You: but the fetus IS a human being, and i can back this up scientifically.

Stranger: well befine a human being

Stranger: define*

You: a human being is any member of the species homo sapiens sapiens

You: specifically, any organism said specied

You: ^species

You: human beings, like all species, are defined by our DNA

Stranger: well, the definition af a species is a population with simular phisiology, morphology and behaivior, that can breed together to produce fertile ofspring

You: can you breed with a toddler?

Stranger: it can not be defined by its DNA cos all dna is different

You: or with a post-menopausal woman?

You: that definition is a valid one if you look at an organism's entire lifestyle.

You: ^lifespan

Stranger: lifecycle u mean

Stranger: and i dont know, i think we have both drifted off the point here haha

You: no, the core issue, as you yourself have admitted, is whether the fetus is a human being.

Stranger: well yes

Stranger: and i personally feel that it should b legal to a certain degree, very stricktly controlled, but legalk

You: why should it be strictly controlled?

You: In your view, it is no more bad than a mole-removal surgery

You: or a liposuction

Stranger: as i have said, so it is not relyed on as a method of contriception, but as a last option for those unable to car for a child

You: but if the fetus is a part of the woman's body, who are you to control or limit abortions?

Stranger: and i dont think u could compare it to mole removal surgery

You: why not?

You: you said its part of her body.

You: but, as i am trying to demonstrate, it is not.

You: the fetus is a separate organism.

Stranger: it isnt!

You: why isn't it?

Stranger: its relys on the mother

Stranger: its not a seprate organism

Stranger: right up intill birth

You: a tapeworm relies on its host. is a tapeworm not an organism?

Stranger: there for it is the mothers responsability

Stranger: ooo touché haha

Stranger: that was a good argument

Stranger: hmmm

Stranger: that wasnt sarcasm btw

Stranger: it sounded like it

You: we rely on the bacteria in our colon to aid digestion

Stranger: thats different

You: a clownfish relies on the anemone it inhabits.

Stranger: thats a mutualistic sinbiotic relationship

You: A fungus relies on the tree it grows on.

You: oftentimes harming the tree.

Stranger: but the fungas was not the trees choice

You: no, it was not.

Stranger: and its not the trees responability

You: the fungus is still a separate organism

Stranger: u can nto campre these as these animals do not have consions thought

Stranger: there all just chemical reactions

You: thought is also a series of chemical reactions in the brain.

Stranger: but thoughts can be reshionolised

You: what?

Stranger: spelling fail

Stranger: sorry

You: lol

You: its ok

Stranger: rationalised

You: what do you mean by that?

Stranger: that right, ull have to bear with me, i am dyslexic

Stranger: haha

You: whose bright idea was it to make the word dyslexic so hard to spell?

Stranger: i dont know but is sooooo annoying haha

You: would you acknowledge that the fungus is not part of the tree?

Stranger: yes, a fungus is a separate

You: what about a tapeworm? is a tapeworm part of its host?

Stranger: yes

Stranger: however the host did not choose to have the tape worm, and its not the hosts responsability

You: a tapeworm IS part of its host??

Stranger: if a person has a tape worm, it is removed cos it is bad for the hosts health

Stranger: in some cases, a bady can be bad for its host

Stranger: be it health, or otherwise

You: i know htat

You: im asking if the tapeworm is another organism.

Stranger: well yes, it is

You: so you know that an organism can rely upon another organism.

Stranger: yes

Stranger: but it is not the same, a tapeworm relys on a host as that is the niche it has evolved into, its how it suvives

Stranger: a bady is a product of breeding

Stranger: so therefore is the mothers responsability

Stranger: so its her choice, untill it becomes a huma being in the eys of the law

Stranger: ie, when it is born

You: if the law said that the fetus was a human being, would you support it?

Stranger: it depends upon the evidance supplyed to suport the claim

You: so your view is not entirely based upon the law.

You: do you acknowledge that the fetus is a separate organism?

Stranger: it is, however its dependant on the mother

You: yes, it is.

You: i entirely acknowledge that.

You: my next question is "is it human"?

You: ^?"

Stranger: i personally believe, that untill in it born, it is not human

You: then what is it?

Stranger: a fetus, embyo, zygote

You: what kind of embryo?

You: it has to belong to a species.

You: if not homo sapiens, is it a Quercus bicolor (swamp white oak)?

You: is it Pristella maxillaris, the x-ray fish?

You: what about felis catus, the common house cat?

Stranger: well throw all the latin around that u like, copy and pating of the internet isnt a sign of intelligence

You: im just asking, what species does it belong to if not hte human one

Stranger: bottom line, opinion is opinion

You: we can argue about whether it has rights

You: that's opinion.

You: but fact is fact and it can be scientifically proven that the embryo is human.

Stranger: how?

You: the law of biogenesis states that living things reproduce after their own kind only

You: cats have cats

You: oaks have oaks

You: mushrooms have mushrooms

You: bacteria have bacteria

You: humans have _____

Stranger: yes, they have cats, as in they give birth to a car

You: what?

Stranger: that saying is not scientific and doesnt prove anything

Stranger: it has nothing to do with what it us up untill it is born

You: that sounds like it would hurt, giving birth to a car.

Stranger: there is a species of wasp that lays its egg in a species of ant

You: yes there is.

Stranger: the ant gives birth to the wasp lavie

Stranger: are they ants

Stranger: ?

You: i should ask you that question.

You: reproduction happens at fertilization and not birth

You: if it happened at birth, the larva would be ants.

You: also, im pretty sure that it lays it in an ant corpse

You: the larva eat their way out; they aren't born.

Stranger: haha, u might b right there actually

Stranger: well i just shot myself in the foot.........

Stranger: darrn

You: the larva's species is determined by its dna, which is determined by its parentage.

You: there was a story a few years ago about a zebra embryo that was implanted into a horse

You: it was born a zebra, of course.

You: the horse was not the zebra's parent, merely a surrogate.

Stranger: mhmm

Stranger: well i duno, i have a feeling this convo would go on like fire and ice

You: the actual reproduction occured when the zebra sperm fused with the zebra egg

You: thats not true

You: im merely seeking to agree on the biological facts.

You: this is not even into the realm of morality yet.

You: unless, that is, you already hold that it is immoral to kill human beings.

Stranger: well yes, i think its is immoral to kill a human being, however this then comes back to what or shouldi say when, a fetus becomes classed as a human

You: do you think it's immoral to kill someone in a coma?

Stranger: arrr, good argumant

Stranger: yes, cos he is human, iraspective of if he is consious

You: so, we are back to when reproduction occurs.

Stranger: looks like it ye haha

You: it cannot be birth, as is shown by surrogate mothers

You: reproduction is defined as the production of offspring.

You: in asexual reproduction, this is done typically by mitosis.

You: or, for multicellular organisms, sprouting or division.

Stranger: i know all this, basically, the issue is when does it become human

Stranger: and my personal belief is that it becomes human once the cord is cut to phrase it badly

You: organisms cannot change species during their lifetime.

You: if you posit that the embryo is not human, i would ask you what about the cutting of the cord changes the baby's DNA/

You: also, what about lotus births?

Stranger: lotus births?

Stranger: please explain

You: lotus births are where the parents decide not to cut the cord and instead allow it to dry up and detach naturally.

Stranger: right

You: the placenta is kept in a bowl.

Stranger: well still, at some point it becomes detached

Stranger: so is the time of birth classed as when it leaves the body, or when the cord is cut?

You: well, in america it used to be legal to kill the baby when his head was still in the birth canal.

You: we banned that, though.

Stranger: right

You: merely being attached to another organism does not change your species.

You: And it does not make you part of that organism.

Stranger: i agree

You: good.

You: see, we're getting somewhere!

Stranger: but as i keep saying, i believe that although it is not part of thr organism, it is still dependant, and thefore the mothers responsability

Stranger: surly a life of ill treatment due to bad care on the mothers behalf, is worst than never consiously knowing u exsisted

You: it may be the mother's responsibility, but it is still a member of the human species.

Stranger: therefore, some would argue, not actually ever exsisting

You: so, you are judging human value, not on being human, but on being self-aware.

You: you distinguish between human homo sapiens, and self-aware "persons"

Stranger: i am judging it PARTLY on quality of exsistance yes

You: quality of existence or on whether you are consciously aware of your existence?

Stranger: well u have to be consious to judge a quality of exsistance

You: how can you tell how someone's life will be in the future?

You: some of the greatest people in history were born to less than ideal circumstances.

You: some of the worst serial killers were born to happy families.

Stranger: good point

You: steve jobs was adopted.

Stranger: but how about genetic diseases

Stranger: we know they will have a less than full life, is it right to knowingly let a child be born into a life of suffering

You: anyone who's been around those with impairments will tell you that they are the happiest people they had met/

You: if an infant is born paralyzed, would you support killing her?

Stranger: know, because it has already been born, thus it would b murder

You: because self-awareness doesn't come when the cord is cut. it comes 12-18 months after birth

You: princeton bioethicist peter singer said “Human babies are not born self-aware, or capable of grasping that they exist over time. They are not persons”

You: he concluded “the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee.”

Stranger: i disagree that it is of less value

You: why?

Stranger: however i would not claim it is of more value

You: why?

You: why not?

You: would you seriously hold a baby to be on par with a pig?

Stranger: well u say it as if a pig is not worthy of respect as it it not human.......

You: you say it as if a baby is not worthy of respect because it is not smart enough.

Stranger: i would respect an animals life as i would respect that of a child

Stranger: as would i respect a childs as i do an animal

Stranger: i never claimed that a child was not worthy of respect

You: are you a vegetarian?

Stranger: no, but i see where u are going here haha

You: would u eat a baby?

Stranger: yup, i though u would say that

Stranger: and no, i wouldnt

Stranger: eating a pig is evalution, eating a child is canablism

You: it is clearly an absurd position to say you are valuable by your level of self-awareness.

You: and it contradicts your earlier defense of the coma patient.

You: if you had been killed as a newborn, that would mean "never consiously knowing u exsisted"

Stranger: well yes, if u where killed as a new born, or a coma pationt, either way its murber as u are by law a human being

Stranger: i am not saying they would not b wrong

You: and many women never know they were pregnant until birth, so infanticide would prevent "a life of ill treatment due to bad care on the mothers behalf"

You: im not asking what the law thinks. im asking what YOU think.

Stranger: i have already told u what i think

Stranger: i personally believe, untill a fetus is born, it is not human, and therefore not worth of the same rights as a human, meaning its the mothers call

You: you think it is wrong to kill infants and coma patients despite their lack of self-awareness, which you use to justify abortion.

Stranger: and so far as i can see, the law suports this veiw for now

You: if its not human, what is it?

Stranger: see u keep asking this, u are using is as a fall back argument cos u know i can only say its human

You: organisms cannot belong to no species.

You: if its not a human, it has to be something.

You: it has human DNA and came from human parents

You: and will follow the developmental trajectory of the human species.

You: you, for instance, were a fetus however many years ago, and that fetus was you.

You: you were also an infant however many years ago

You: and a toddler.

Stranger: yes, yes i was, its is development

You: development happens from fertilization until death.

Stranger: the issue here is where does it become a human, not if it develops like a human

You: an organism cannot change species during its lifetime.

Stranger: u have said this

You: a dog does not hit its 5th birthday and become a tree.

Stranger: i now

You: so I ask you to diagnose the *species* of this organism with human DNA and human parents, and the most you can do it come up with its stage of development.

You: there are also dog fetuses and plant embryos

Stranger: i have an idea

You: that would be like me asking what species you are and you answering "im an adult"

You: what is it?

Stranger: that adds a new dimention to this argument

Stranger: would it hav mattered if you had been aborted? cos if u had u wouldnt hav ever exsisted, however as u wernt, all u do is waste ur time on internet chat rooms arguing with someone who before this convo started, didnt giv a toss. would it have been more efficiant and less resourful resource wise if u had just been aborted.......

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