The intellectual pebble in the shoe

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You: What is your opinion on abortion?

Stranger: urrm, i duno, i think they should b legal

Stranger: how about u?

You: why?

Stranger: i personally think it is better for the woman, if it comes to it, then she should have the right to have on

Stranger: e

You: do you not care at all for the rights of the child?

Stranger: as a person, and a biologist, i dont think it has rights untill it is born

You: why not?

Stranger: cos it doesnt know its alive, its not living, its part of the mother

You: if its part of the mother, does that mean the mother has 4 arms?

Stranger: well in a sence ye, but thats a pretty week argument

You: do you not know that the fetus has its own blood type?

You: and its own DNA

You: the fetus is a separate organism that is merely using her body for sustenance.

Stranger: so its a paracite?

Stranger: so if i had a tick removed, is that wrong

You: no, because a parasite is, by definition, of another species

You: but lets say it is a parasite

You: if you see a tick on the ground and step on it, is that immoral?

Stranger: i supose, but if i didnt choose to step on it, maybe i just didnt see it there

Stranger: if the mother didnt mean to get pregnant

Stranger: that puts her in a bad postion, she may not b ready for a bady

You: what country do you live in?

Stranger: the UK

You: do you get TLC on the tv?

Stranger: TLC?

You: The Learning Channel, I believe.

Stranger: no, i dont have sky

Stranger: im afraid

You: well, here we have a show called I Didn't Know I Was Pregnant.

You: many times, women get pregnant and never find out until birth

Stranger: honestly? so they dont know they are missing a period every month, or that there being sick most mornings, or that they have doubled in size

You: if she;s not ready for a kid, can she kill the born baby?

Stranger: not

Stranger: no*

You: some women still experience spotty bleeding that can be mistaken for a light period

Stranger: becaurse that is a human being, its actually been born

You: ahhh

You: so the issue is not whether she's ready

You: not whether she can care for the baby

You: but whether the fetus is a human being

Stranger: it is agaisnt the law to kill a human being! if she is not ready, then it can be given up for adoption

You: if the fetus is not a human being, she can have as many abortions as she wants, for any reason.

Stranger: well i never said i think they should give them out for any reason

You: why not?

Stranger: cos it should not be used as contraseption

Stranger: it should b a last option

You: if the fetus isn't human, she should be allowed to get pregnant so she can eat the fetuses

Stranger: for those unable to care for a child

Stranger: eat the fetus, what is wrong with you!?!?!

You: why would that be immoral?

You: it may be gross, but not immoral if the fetus isn't human.

Stranger: i supose

You: we eat non-humans all the time.

You: but the fetus IS a human being, and i can back this up scientifically.

Stranger: well befine a human being

Stranger: define*

You: a human being is any member of the species homo sapiens sapiens

You: specifically, any organism said specied

You: ^species

You: human beings, like all species, are defined by our DNA

Stranger: well, the definition af a species is a population with simular phisiology, morphology and behaivior, that can breed together to produce fertile ofspring

You: can you breed with a toddler?

Stranger: it can not be defined by its DNA cos all dna is different

You: or with a post-menopausal woman?

You: that definition is a valid one if you look at an organism's entire lifestyle.

You: ^lifespan

Stranger: lifecycle u mean

Stranger: and i dont know, i think we have both drifted off the point here haha

You: no, the core issue, as you yourself have admitted, is whether the fetus is a human being.

Stranger: well yes

Stranger: and i personally feel that it should b legal to a certain degree, very stricktly controlled, but legalk

You: why should it be strictly controlled?

You: In your view, it is no more bad than a mole-removal surgery

You: or a liposuction

Stranger: as i have said, so it is not relyed on as a method of contriception, but as a last option for those unable to car for a child

You: but if the fetus is a part of the woman's body, who are you to control or limit abortions?

Stranger: and i dont think u could compare it to mole removal surgery

You: why not?

You: you said its part of her body.

You: but, as i am trying to demonstrate, it is not.

You: the fetus is a separate organism.

Stranger: it isnt!

You: why isn't it?

Stranger: its relys on the mother

Stranger: its not a seprate organism

Stranger: right up intill birth

You: a tapeworm relies on its host. is a tapeworm not an organism?

Stranger: there for it is the mothers responsability

Stranger: ooo touché haha

Stranger: that was a good argument

Stranger: hmmm

Stranger: that wasnt sarcasm btw

Stranger: it sounded like it

You: we rely on the bacteria in our colon to aid digestion

Stranger: thats different

You: a clownfish relies on the anemone it inhabits.

Stranger: thats a mutualistic sinbiotic relationship

You: A fungus relies on the tree it grows on.

You: oftentimes harming the tree.

Stranger: but the fungas was not the trees choice

You: no, it was not.

Stranger: and its not the trees responability

You: the fungus is still a separate organism

Stranger: u can nto campre these as these animals do not have consions thought

Stranger: there all just chemical reactions

You: thought is also a series of chemical reactions in the brain.

Stranger: but thoughts can be reshionolised

You: what?

Stranger: spelling fail

Stranger: sorry

You: lol

You: its ok

Stranger: rationalised

You: what do you mean by that?

Stranger: that right, ull have to bear with me, i am dyslexic

Stranger: haha

You: whose bright idea was it to make the word dyslexic so hard to spell?

Stranger: i dont know but is sooooo annoying haha

You: would you acknowledge that the fungus is not part of the tree?

Stranger: yes, a fungus is a separate

You: what about a tapeworm? is a tapeworm part of its host?

Stranger: yes

Stranger: however the host did not choose to have the tape worm, and its not the hosts responsability

You: a tapeworm IS part of its host??

Stranger: if a person has a tape worm, it is removed cos it is bad for the hosts health

Stranger: in some cases, a bady can be bad for its host

Stranger: be it health, or otherwise

You: i know htat

You: im asking if the tapeworm is another organism.

Stranger: well yes, it is

You: so you know that an organism can rely upon another organism.

Stranger: yes

Stranger: but it is not the same, a tapeworm relys on a host as that is the niche it has evolved into, its how it suvives

Stranger: a bady is a product of breeding

Stranger: so therefore is the mothers responsability

Stranger: so its her choice, untill it becomes a huma being in the eys of the law

Stranger: ie, when it is born

You: if the law said that the fetus was a human being, would you support it?

Stranger: it depends upon the evidance supplyed to suport the claim

You: so your view is not entirely based upon the law.

You: do you acknowledge that the fetus is a separate organism?

Stranger: it is, however its dependant on the mother

You: yes, it is.

You: i entirely acknowledge that.

You: my next question is "is it human"?

You: ^?"

Stranger: i personally believe, that untill in it born, it is not human

You: then what is it?

Stranger: a fetus, embyo, zygote

You: what kind of embryo?

You: it has to belong to a species.

You: if not homo sapiens, is it a Quercus bicolor (swamp white oak)?

You: is it Pristella maxillaris, the x-ray fish?

You: what about felis catus, the common house cat?

Stranger: well throw all the latin around that u like, copy and pating of the internet isnt a sign of intelligence

You: im just asking, what species does it belong to if not hte human one

Stranger: bottom line, opinion is opinion

You: we can argue about whether it has rights

You: that's opinion.

You: but fact is fact and it can be scientifically proven that the embryo is human.

Stranger: how?

You: the law of biogenesis states that living things reproduce after their own kind only

You: cats have cats

You: oaks have oaks

You: mushrooms have mushrooms

You: bacteria have bacteria

You: humans have _____

Stranger: yes, they have cats, as in they give birth to a car

You: what?

Stranger: that saying is not scientific and doesnt prove anything

Stranger: it has nothing to do with what it us up untill it is born

You: that sounds like it would hurt, giving birth to a car.

Stranger: there is a species of wasp that lays its egg in a species of ant

You: yes there is.

Stranger: the ant gives birth to the wasp lavie

Stranger: are they ants

Stranger: ?

You: i should ask you that question.

You: reproduction happens at fertilization and not birth

You: if it happened at birth, the larva would be ants.

You: also, im pretty sure that it lays it in an ant corpse

You: the larva eat their way out; they aren't born.

Stranger: haha, u might b right there actually

Stranger: well i just shot myself in the foot.........

Stranger: darrn

You: the larva's species is determined by its dna, which is determined by its parentage.

You: there was a story a few years ago about a zebra embryo that was implanted into a horse

You: it was born a zebra, of course.

You: the horse was not the zebra's parent, merely a surrogate.

Stranger: mhmm

Stranger: well i duno, i have a feeling this convo would go on like fire and ice

You: the actual reproduction occured when the zebra sperm fused with the zebra egg

You: thats not true

You: im merely seeking to agree on the biological facts.

You: this is not even into the realm of morality yet.

You: unless, that is, you already hold that it is immoral to kill human beings.

Stranger: well yes, i think its is immoral to kill a human being, however this then comes back to what or shouldi say when, a fetus becomes classed as a human

You: do you think it's immoral to kill someone in a coma?

Stranger: arrr, good argumant

Stranger: yes, cos he is human, iraspective of if he is consious

You: so, we are back to when reproduction occurs.

Stranger: looks like it ye haha

You: it cannot be birth, as is shown by surrogate mothers

You: reproduction is defined as the production of offspring.

You: in asexual reproduction, this is done typically by mitosis.

You: or, for multicellular organisms, sprouting or division.

Stranger: i know all this, basically, the issue is when does it become human

Stranger: and my personal belief is that it becomes human once the cord is cut to phrase it badly

You: organisms cannot change species during their lifetime.

You: if you posit that the embryo is not human, i would ask you what about the cutting of the cord changes the baby's DNA/

You: also, what about lotus births?

Stranger: lotus births?

Stranger: please explain

You: lotus births are where the parents decide not to cut the cord and instead allow it to dry up and detach naturally.

Stranger: right

You: the placenta is kept in a bowl.

Stranger: well still, at some point it becomes detached

Stranger: so is the time of birth classed as when it leaves the body, or when the cord is cut?

You: well, in america it used to be legal to kill the baby when his head was still in the birth canal.

You: we banned that, though.

Stranger: right

You: merely being attached to another organism does not change your species.

You: And it does not make you part of that organism.

Stranger: i agree

You: good.

You: see, we're getting somewhere!

Stranger: but as i keep saying, i believe that although it is not part of thr organism, it is still dependant, and thefore the mothers responsability

Stranger: surly a life of ill treatment due to bad care on the mothers behalf, is worst than never consiously knowing u exsisted

You: it may be the mother's responsibility, but it is still a member of the human species.

Stranger: therefore, some would argue, not actually ever exsisting

You: so, you are judging human value, not on being human, but on being self-aware.

You: you distinguish between human homo sapiens, and self-aware "persons"

Stranger: i am judging it PARTLY on quality of exsistance yes

You: quality of existence or on whether you are consciously aware of your existence?

Stranger: well u have to be consious to judge a quality of exsistance

You: how can you tell how someone's life will be in the future?

You: some of the greatest people in history were born to less than ideal circumstances.

You: some of the worst serial killers were born to happy families.

Stranger: good point

You: steve jobs was adopted.

Stranger: but how about genetic diseases

Stranger: we know they will have a less than full life, is it right to knowingly let a child be born into a life of suffering

You: anyone who's been around those with impairments will tell you that they are the happiest people they had met/

You: if an infant is born paralyzed, would you support killing her?

Stranger: know, because it has already been born, thus it would b murder

You: because self-awareness doesn't come when the cord is cut. it comes 12-18 months after birth

You: princeton bioethicist peter singer said “Human babies are not born self-aware, or capable of grasping that they exist over time. They are not persons”

You: he concluded “the life of a newborn is of less value than the life of a pig, a dog, or a chimpanzee.”

Stranger: i disagree that it is of less value

You: why?

Stranger: however i would not claim it is of more value

You: why?

You: why not?

You: would you seriously hold a baby to be on par with a pig?

Stranger: well u say it as if a pig is not worthy of respect as it it not human.......

You: you say it as if a baby is not worthy of respect because it is not smart enough.

Stranger: i would respect an animals life as i would respect that of a child

Stranger: as would i respect a childs as i do an animal

Stranger: i never claimed that a child was not worthy of respect

You: are you a vegetarian?

Stranger: no, but i see where u are going here haha

You: would u eat a baby?

Stranger: yup, i though u would say that

Stranger: and no, i wouldnt

Stranger: eating a pig is evalution, eating a child is canablism

You: it is clearly an absurd position to say you are valuable by your level of self-awareness.

You: and it contradicts your earlier defense of the coma patient.

You: if you had been killed as a newborn, that would mean "never consiously knowing u exsisted"

Stranger: well yes, if u where killed as a new born, or a coma pationt, either way its murber as u are by law a human being

Stranger: i am not saying they would not b wrong

You: and many women never know they were pregnant until birth, so infanticide would prevent "a life of ill treatment due to bad care on the mothers behalf"

You: im not asking what the law thinks. im asking what YOU think.

Stranger: i have already told u what i think

Stranger: i personally believe, untill a fetus is born, it is not human, and therefore not worth of the same rights as a human, meaning its the mothers call

You: you think it is wrong to kill infants and coma patients despite their lack of self-awareness, which you use to justify abortion.

Stranger: and so far as i can see, the law suports this veiw for now

You: if its not human, what is it?

Stranger: see u keep asking this, u are using is as a fall back argument cos u know i can only say its human

You: organisms cannot belong to no species.

You: if its not a human, it has to be something.

You: it has human DNA and came from human parents

You: and will follow the developmental trajectory of the human species.

You: you, for instance, were a fetus however many years ago, and that fetus was you.

You: you were also an infant however many years ago

You: and a toddler.

Stranger: yes, yes i was, its is development

You: development happens from fertilization until death.

Stranger: the issue here is where does it become a human, not if it develops like a human

You: an organism cannot change species during its lifetime.

Stranger: u have said this

You: a dog does not hit its 5th birthday and become a tree.

Stranger: i now

You: so I ask you to diagnose the *species* of this organism with human DNA and human parents, and the most you can do it come up with its stage of development.

You: there are also dog fetuses and plant embryos

Stranger: i have an idea

You: that would be like me asking what species you are and you answering "im an adult"

You: what is it?

Stranger: that adds a new dimention to this argument

Stranger: would it hav mattered if you had been aborted? cos if u had u wouldnt hav ever exsisted, however as u wernt, all u do is waste ur time on internet chat rooms arguing with someone who before this convo started, didnt giv a toss. would it have been more efficiant and less resourful resource wise if u had just been aborted.......

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