Thursday, May 27, 2010

then go ahead, shoot it

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
Stranger: HI
You: Hey there, Stranger.
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: It really brings out the kid in you
You: That was a horrible pun.
Stranger: :(
You: Seriously, though.
Stranger: I am fort it
Stranger: for it*
You: Why?
Stranger: Because I don't want fucked up kids walking around my neighbourhood
Stranger: HURR DURR I LIKE CAT *eats cat*
You: Then why stop at birth?
You: Why not shoot the little fuckers?
Stranger: Hell yeah
Stranger: shot it
Stranger: shoot it*
Stranger: And they get awards and privileges
Stranger: Cripple burns down school, It's alright your special - Regular Person burns down school, Jail
Stranger: And what do you think of abortion?
You: It's bad.
Stranger: And how so?
Stranger: ???
You: It's as bad as killing any person.
Stranger: But it isn't really a person
Stranger: it's like...a 1/4 person
You: How so?
You: It's the same person as a toddler, just younger.
Stranger: It's a fetus
You: Yes, and used to be an embryo and will be a toddler.
You: A fetus is a fetus and a toddler is a toddler; both are just different age ranges.
Stranger: Some teens also get pregnant very young
Stranger: so it can lead to 1 problem going away
Stranger: You don't want to be taking care of a kid while you are in high school
You: So someone should be killed for a mistake someone else made before they even existed?
Stranger: Yes
Stranger: For the sake of the pregnant girl
Stranger: You are smart, fellow stranger, I applaud you
You: So it's okay to kill an innocent person to make someone else's life easier?
Stranger: This "innocent person" was a mistake
Stranger: and is unwanted
You: So anyone who isn't wanted can be killed?
Stranger: In this case yes
Stranger: In other cases no
You: Why is this case special?
Stranger: Because to make an unwanted mistake dissapear to make life easier
You: If a dad realizes his daughter was a mistake, can he shoot her?
Stranger: He would go to jail, because it is a crime
Stranger: It's too late
You: Why is it too late?
You: Maybe he just found out about his daughter.
Stranger: Well if he would have realized this before she was born
You: Maybe her mother just found him and started asking for child support.
Stranger: Then get her child support
Stranger: but if nothing else can happen
Stranger: then it's an abortiobn
Stranger: abortion
You: But he can't get rid of an unwanted mistake to make life easier?
Stranger: He can
Stranger: Let's make a scenario and discuss it, A male and a female find out that the girl is pregnant at age 18, the male - know he can't take care of it - leaves his wife, in this situation it may be ok to get an abortion
Stranger: leaves his girlfriend*
Stranger: not wife
You: Okay.
You: And?
Stranger: And, abortion is okay in this situation
You: No, it is not.
You: What exactly did the baby do to deserve death?
Stranger: Nothing
Stranger: what did it to do deserve life?
You: What did a toddler do to deserve life?
Stranger: He wasn't a mistake, his parents liked him/her
You: What if the toddler was a mistake?
You: And his parents hate him?
Stranger: Then abortion
You: Why can't you kill him as a toddler?
Stranger: Because you would go to jail
Stranger: Because you took the life of something, in abortion you don't exactly take the life, you just make sure it doesnt continue to develop
You: Shooting him would stop the toddler from continuing to develop.
Stranger: but the toddler has a life
Stranger: the fetus doesn't exactly have a life
Stranger: it's still forming
You: The toddler is still forming too.
You: Not all his systems will be up and running until puberty.
Stranger: but it has a life
You: And the fetus doesn't?
You: Is the fetus dead?
Stranger: It's not living
Stranger: What is the purpose of this questioning?
You: If the fetus isn't living what's the umbilical cord for?
You: Dead things don't need food, water, and oxygen.
You: Dead cells don't divide either.
Stranger: =/
Stranger: Abortions are to make lives easier, the baby is unwanted and can't be taken care of or the parents don't want to take care of it
You: So what if killing an unwanted toddler makes your life easier?
Stranger: Well if it survives through birth, then it is most likely wanted
Stranger: Yes kiling an unwanted toddler can be easier
Stranger: killing*
You: Should parents be allowed to kill unwanted newborns?
Stranger: They can give it away
Stranger: Or abort it
You: Should parents be allowed to kill unwanted newborns if they can't care for them and killing them would make their lives easier?
Stranger: Yes
You: Should parents be allowed to kill unwanted toddlers if they can't care for them and killing them would make their lives easier?
Stranger: Yes
You: Should parents be allowed to kill unwanted kindergarteners if they can't care for them and killing them would make their lives easier?
Stranger: If it's there's?
Stranger: We are talking about the fetus, not the newborns or toddlers?
You: Should parents be allowed to kill their unwanted kindergarteners if they can't care for them and killing them would make their lives easier?
Stranger: No
You: How come?
Stranger: Because you can go to jail for it
Stranger: You can do it, you will just pay the consequences
You: Should it be legal?
Stranger: No
Stranger: That would promote murder
You: Why not?
Stranger:
You: Why can't the unwanted kindergartener be killed but the unwanted newborn can?
Stranger: The unwanted newborn can't
Stranger: Again, it's murder
You: What's the difference?
Stranger: Between
You: Between the newborn baby and the unborn baby.
Stranger: Unborn baby is unwanted and was a mistake, if it survived through that and is now a newborn that it is obviously wanted
You: I'm taking about unwanted newborns.
Stranger: Unborn baby = Abortion, Newborn,toddler, etc. = Give away
You: Not everyone finds out they're pregnant by the time they're giving birth.
Stranger: then give it away
You: Adoption takes a while.
Stranger: Well wait it out
You: Why can't the pregnant lady just wait it out and give up the baby?
Stranger: Maybe because she doesn't want pain when giving birth
Stranger: or maybe she wants to take flights but can't
You: There's a lot of trouble raising an infant too.
You: Why suffer that and wait for adoption when a bullet would solve their problem?
Stranger: Because then you can go to jail
You: If abortion was illegal, would that make it wrong?
Stranger: Make what wrong?
You: Abortion.
Stranger: I guess so,yeah
Stranger: but different countries have different laws
You: If it was legal to kill kindergarteners, would that make killing kindergarteners right?
Stranger: Not everything legal is right
Stranger: Marijuana can be legal but is still wrong
You: Okay, but everything illegal is wrong?
Stranger: Well, name something
You: You said that if abortion was illegal, it would become wrong.
Stranger: becuase you would have to face the consequence of going to jail
You: But would that make it WRONG?
Stranger: Yes
You: Should it be illegal to kill kindergarteners?
Stranger: It is illegal...
You: SHOULD it be?
Stranger: If it isn't yes, if it is keep it that way
You: Okay, should it be illegal to kill newborns?
Stranger: same answer
You: Okay, should it be illegal to kill unborn babies?
Stranger: No, if the parents know they will have a big difficulty raising it,they can get rid of it
Stranger: And, stem cells help people
You: But they can't kill a newborn baby if they know they will have a big difficulty raising it?
Stranger: Too late
You: Why?
Stranger: because it is already born into the world
You: So?
You: It's not like the fetus wasn't in the world before birth.
Stranger: the newborn is living his life
Stranger: it isn't born into the world
You: The unborn baby is living his life too.
Stranger: But when you grow up, on your birthday you don't say I'm 16 and 9 months old
You: I do.
Stranger: Your birthday isn't when your parents had sex, it's when you were born
You: I measure my age from my estimated date of conception.
You: Whenever I use my natal age, I specify it as such.
Stranger: Well, most people don't
You: But that's a cultural phenomenon that's got nothing to do with the moral worth of the unborn child.
Stranger: =/
You: Not all cultures measure age from birth.
Stranger: But most do
You: So?
You: You seriously think cultures have never been wrong?
You: What about when we embraced slavery?
You: Or racism in general?
You: Or sexism?
Stranger: Slavery gets shit done
Stranger: But would you say that abortion would be right for one of your friends who is 16 years old, still in school, failing her classes and already has a kid?
You: No.
Stranger: What would you recommend?
You: I'd recommend she find a local pregnancy resource center, and I'd do what I could to help her with adoption.
Stranger: What if she doesnt want to carry a baby for 9 months
Stranger: then end up leaving it
You: Then I'd suggest induced labor once viability is reached.
You: What if parents of an infant don't want to take care of the baby while adoption is sorted out?
Stranger: If adoption is sorted out then get rid of it
You: Yes, but adoption takes time,
You: In the meantime, they may not want to take care of the baby and then give her up.
Stranger: in what way, give her up?
You: For adoption.
Stranger: well then they'll have to wait it out
You: But what if they don't want to wait it out?
Stranger: Then what choices do they have?
You: They could shoot the kid.
Stranger: THey can't
You: Why not?
Stranger: Because they would get improsined
You: Why should they be imprisoned if they were just getting rid of a mistake?
Stranger: No
You: What if they don't want to feed and clothe a baby until adoption is finalized
You: then end up leaving it
Stranger: Then that's there choice
You: Should they be allowed to shoot the baby?
Stranger: No
You: Why not?
Stranger: Because it's murder
You: The baby is a mistake that they just want to get rid of.
You: Adoption would take time and require more effort.
Stranger: I smell bacon
Stranger: well as soon as it's born
Stranger: they can't kill it
You: Why not?
Stranger: It is illegal, I don't make laws
You: I didn't ask if it was allowed; I asked if it SHOULD be allowed.
Stranger: It should be allowed, abortion is allowed, murder isn't
You: Now, I've got nothing against vaginas, but passing through one doesn't change who you are.
Stranger: But all I know is once you pass through it, you can't be aborted, unless you are being aborted
You: Why is it okay to kill the baby on one side of the birth canal but not on the other?
Stranger: I'm not sure
You: It's the same baby.
You: It just moved.
Stranger: Well, I don't know stranger
You: If you're going to use it to justify killing people, you should know.
Stranger: I'm just for it
You: Okay imagine this.
You: Do you hunt?
Stranger: No
Stranger: But go on
You: Are you okay with hunting?
Stranger: Yeah
You: Okay.
You: Imagine this.
You: A hunter is out hunting with a few of his buddies and they decide to spread out.
You: One hunter sees a bush rustling, but doesn't know if it's a deer or a person.
You: Should he shoot?
Stranger: No
Stranger: Why risk losing a friend just for hunting?
You: Okay.
You: Imagine this, then.
You: Would you demolish a building if you didn't know if there was anyone inside?
Stranger: No
You: Would you say either of these actions (shooting the bush or demolishing the building) should be allowed?
Stranger: Unless proper information be given, then it shouldn't be allowed
You: Well.
You: You are unable to explain why changing location makes it wrong to kill the same baby.
You: Should we not air on the side of caution as with the hunter and demolition technician?
Stranger: I don't know why, neither do you
Stranger: I'm for it though
Stranger: Normally as the demoltion tech, you would be given info that all is clear
You: Yes, but before you get that info you can't blow it up.
Stranger: Yeah
Stranger: And before you get info whether it is a deer or person, you shouldn't shoot
You: But you can abort when you don't know if it's a person or not?
Stranger: It's a person
Stranger: It just...
You: Then why can it be killed?
Stranger: Because it is the mothers choice
Stranger: it is inside her
You: Why isn't it the mother's choice for the born baby?
Stranger: if a mother says "I need a heart transplant" she can do it, but if you give a random person a heart transplant without them even asking, you can't do it
Stranger: Because it isn't inside her anymore
You: She never asked the baby if it wanted to die.
Stranger: The mother can do anything to the baby when it inside her
Stranger: she can smoke,drink and abort
You: So she can murder anyone who's inside her?
Stranger: It is her "property" i guess you can put it, so yes
You: So all you need to do to own someone is to put them in your body?
Stranger: Not that way
Stranger: But it is in her ownership
Stranger: you can have a dog
Stranger: and have it put down
Stranger: because it is of your ownership
You: The fetus never asked to be in her body; its location and dependency are a result of actions beyond its control.
Stranger: The dog never asked to be bought
Stranger: Well it's too bad for it
Stranger: the sperm cell moved into the vagina
Stranger: which was unwanted
You: So anyone can kill anyone else that's inside them?
Stranger: yes
Stranger: Because it's their body
You: So if I put you in my body, I could kill you?
Stranger: How would you do that?
Stranger: You don't take what I say to the extreme
Stranger: you keep it simple
You: It doesn't matter how I do it.
You: Would it be okay?
Stranger: To abort yes, to put something in your body JUST to kill ity
Stranger: no
Stranger: it*
You: Why not?
You: You say it's fine to kill someone in your body even if you put them there in the first place.
You: Someone doesn't magically become property because of where they are.
Stranger: The mother has rights to do anything she wants to herself
You: But not to someone else.
Stranger: The government doesn't care about what's inside the mother therefore they let her do what she wants
You: The government didn't always care about women.
Stranger: Are you male or female?
You: It use to not technically be considered "rape" if done by her husband.
You: I'm female.
You: But that really doesn't matter.
Stranger: Well let's just say a girl was raped, and now is pregnant
You: Let's say I was male. I'm making the same argument.
Stranger: would you say an abortion would be necessary?
You: No, I would not. I know plenty of women who were concieved in rape.
Stranger: The child, being born, would have to live with the guilt of having his dad be a criminal and never seeing him. Being a mistake
You: They aren't subhuman because of a crime committed before they existed.
Stranger: Made from the pain of the mothe
Stranger: mother*
Stranger: I'm not saying they are subhuman
Stranger: but can you imagine living with that in your head?
You: I don't have to; I have friends who do.
Stranger: Your friends were born from rape?
You: Not all of my friends, of course.
Stranger: Yeah I know that
Stranger: but one was?
You: A couple.
You: Juda was concieved when her mother was gangraped by 8 men.
Stranger: O.O
You: She donsn't feel guilty for what happened before she existed.
Stranger: Guilty was the wrong word to use
Stranger: I just mean't living with your dad being a criminal, not seeing him, knowing your a mistake
You: Irene was concieved of rape and later aborted a rape baby, which she really regrets.
Stranger: You were not meant to be, what you are now
You: She's glad she's alive.
You: You're sure quick to make judgements about who is worthy of not being killed.
Stranger: You are just saying it because of your friends
Stranger: What did other Strangers say to your question, or am I your first?
You: What do you mean?
Stranger: Did you ask this question to other people?
Stranger: on omegle
You: Yeah, a few.
Stranger: And what did they say?
You: Some were for, some against.
You: Some were just trolls.
Stranger: Some were trolls, lol, I was expecting all trolls
You: LOL
Stranger: And, I'm just curious, why are you asking this?
You: Some were real flaky and couldn't answer my questions.
Stranger: lol
You: I'm asking because Omegle deserves more intelligent conversations.
Stranger: Instead of "m or f, ur an f? wana cyber?!?!?"
You: Exactly.
You: But being conceived of rape in no way makes you unworthy of life.
Stranger: I know
Stranger: But if the mother doesn't want her child growing up with these thoughts
Stranger: or maybe she wasn't ready to raise a child
You: So a baby can be killed if she MAY grow up with some unhappy thoughts?
Stranger: In any situation, would you recommend an abortion to anyone?
Stranger: Well maybe the mother doesn't want her/him to suffer, or just because she can't support a child
Stranger: not because being a rape baby makes you subhuman and unworthy of life
You: That assumes they'll suffer.
You: And everyone's gonna suffer in their life. We don't have a crystal ball to tell how much.
Stranger: In any situation would you recommend an abortion?
You: It depends on how you define abortion.
You: If in trying to save one's life, the other dies, that is tragic but acceptable.
Stranger: What do you mean?
Stranger: I mean killing the baby
You: If the baby dies in an attempt to save the mother's life, that is okay.
Stranger: ok
You: All effort should go towards saving both lives.
Stranger: Would you recommend an abortion if you think parents aren't suitable for taking on a child?
Stranger: Say the mother smokes and drinks while the father does drugs and beats his wife, always cheating on her
You: No more than I would recommend infanticide for the same couple.
You: If they can't kill their newborn baby for reason X, they cannot kill their unborn baby for reason X.
Stranger: Okay
You: I find it absurd to class a person as property.
Stranger: =/
You: And, frankly, I find it offensive.
Stranger: So you find what I say offensive?
You: Yes.
Stranger: :(
Stranger: But people have been property for hundreds of years
Stranger: and some can still be
You: So slavery was okay?
Stranger: back then
Stranger: it was
You: What?
Stranger: A long time ago, slavery was okay
You: It's not okay any more?
Stranger: In some places it could be
You: So all that needs to happen for abortion to not be okay is for people to agree that it's not okay?
Stranger: I guess so
Stranger: People fought against slavery
You: So was the Holocaust okay?
Stranger: whether it was black people or white people
You: People are fighting against abortion.
Stranger: so htye abolished it in most countries
Stranger: Yes
Stranger: I know
Stranger: But some people don't care
Stranger: Because it doesn't affect them in any way
You: Ah.
You: Wait.
You: The Holocaust was okay‽
Stranger: No
Stranger: Some people may believe it was
Stranger: it can be argued
Stranger: just like we are argueing now
Stranger: But abortion isn't really a big thing
Stranger: Slavery was huge
Stranger: starting a 5 year war
You: There was only a war because people opposed slavery.
You: Without the abolitionists, the Civil War couldve been avoided
Stranger: But with how it affected so many people
Stranger: someone always has to oppose something
You: Abortion KILLED so many people
You: Abortion makes the Holocaust look like a box of kittens.
Stranger: Holocaust was worse
You: Do you know how many people died in the Holocaust?
Stranger: 7 million
You: 11 million.
You: 6 million Jews.
You: Do you know how many people are killed by abortion every year?
Stranger: But this isn't done by one man, or one organization
You: No, but it is still done.
Stranger: But the problem is too many people dont care
Stranger: and if a war is started, who will it go against?
Stranger: Hospitals?
You: Lots of people didn't care about the Holocaust.
You: It took Pearl Harbor to bring the US into WW2
Stranger: But the holocaust didn't start because of a war
You: Actually, that's debatable.
You: The Nazis wouldn't have been able to come to power so easily without WW1.
Stranger: I guess it can be
Stranger: But the war started before the holocaust
You: It was the forced raparations and economic destabilization that lead to the Holocaust.
You: But that's off topic.
You: You think that a person can be property?
Stranger: No
Stranger: I just couldn
Stranger: I just couldnt put it in any other way
You: You said the baby was her property.
Stranger: The mother has full control of the baby that she is feeding and taking care of
You: Why?
You: I mean the parents are feeding and taking care of the newborn while adoption is sorted out.
Stranger: But that's until it is given away
You: And pregnancy is until birth.
You: Both are temporary conditions until custody can be given up.
You: Both involve a baby who you readily admit is a person.
Stranger: one would rather abort then wait for an adoption
You: What if they'd rather shoot the newborn than wait for adoption?
Stranger: then go ahead, shoot it
You: Really?
Stranger: Yeah
You: Go ahead and shoot the newborn baby?
Stranger: their choice not mine
You: How about shooting a kindergartener?
Stranger: Okay, shoot the kindergartener for no reason
Stranger: Go right into a school, find one and shoot it
You: Really?
Stranger: Yeah
Stranger: I don't know
Stranger: Again, it's their choice
You: You're not serious.
Stranger: I am serious...
Stranger: I have been serious through this whole chat
Stranger: Why would you bring in shooting kindergarteners, hell, why would you bring in shooting?
You: Because it's the same person as the baby, just older.
Stranger: So why shoot it?
You: Why not?
Stranger: A gun is expensive
You: If you've already got a gun, why not?
You: I mean abortion is expensive too.
Stranger: But you can risk going to jail
You: You can get a gun that will do the job for much less than an abortion.
You: If you have an abortion in the wrong country the same thing could happen
Stranger: So you are saying shooting kids with a gun is more efficient than abortion?
You: I'm saying it costs less.
You: And accomplishes a dead kid just the same.
Stranger: But with a chance of going to jail
You: If abortion was illegal, the same would apply to it.
Stranger: yes
You: Should parents be allowed to save money by shooting unwanted kids?
You: If not, why not?
Connection imploded.
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Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Frankly, there is nothing wrong with murder

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: Hey.
Stranger: hello
You: Did you hear about Zoe Ball?
Stranger: no. whats that?
You: A baby in Australia.
Stranger: ok, well im sorry. i live in canada.
You: She was recently killed in utero when her mother was run down by a drunk driver.
Stranger: oh damn
You: But the New South Wales law basically says they never existen.
You: she never existed*
Stranger: how?
You: They won't let her parents file a murder or manslaughter charge.
Stranger: what kind of law is that??
You: A stupid one.
You: And Zoe was 8 months!
Stranger: obviously. i mean what the fuck?
Stranger: what does the law state?
You: Since Zoe hadn't taken her first breath the law didn't recognize her as human.
Stranger: oh. she wasn't born yet
You: Yeah.
Stranger: still, the driver should have been prosecuted
You: I said "killed in utero".
You: The police report did not even mention Zoe's death!
Stranger: maybe it hadn't been confirmed?
You: No, the law in Australia just doesn't give a shit about you if you haven't been born.
Stranger: um north america has a political party that is the same way
You: That's stupid.
Stranger: im guessing you're anti-abortion?
You: Yeah, I am.
Stranger: i honestly think that after 3 months, when the child has consciousness, the mother should no longer be able to abort it
You: What do you mean by "consciousnedd"?
You: ss*
Stranger: if the child can have thoughts, or can learn at that stage, then it should be considered human
You: What do you mean by "thoughts"?
Stranger: but before that, i think the mother should be able to abort
You: Because before about a year after birth, a baby's "thoughts" are below that of some animals.
Stranger: even so, animals have rights
You: So, you think that someone gets rights based on their mental capabilities?
Stranger: no, i think that the world is overpopulated, and some people get pregnant without intention.
Stranger: condoms are not perfect.
You: So you think that it's okay to kill people to reduce the population?
Stranger: lol absolutely. born or not, it has to be done. People die all the time. Death is the only real certainty. I don't look at it with a cynical point of view
Stranger: i mean, i wouldn't volunteer, but if it happened to me, that's the way it goes
You: Seriously?
Stranger: are you a christian?
You: No, I'm not.
Stranger: atheist?
You: Yes.
Stranger: same as me
You: I'm a humanist, though.
You: I like to be moral and I don't like solving problems with violence.
Stranger: what do you believe the meaning of life is?
You: I think the meaning of life is whatever you make it.
Stranger: exactly. it's your perception
Stranger: there is no truth in morality
You: Should it be legal just to go on a raping spree?
Stranger: morality is nice, but it's a social code of conduct, which is easily dropped when times are tough
Stranger: no, that would disrupt society greatly
You: so?
Stranger: societies are just like a bee hive
Stranger: the workers get enough to live, and work all their lives
Stranger: knowing that the hive doesnt give a fuck about them
You: okay, should it be legal for parents to kill their children up to 6 years of age if they get too expensive?
Stranger: and when they die, they die with the delusion that they made a difference. That their life meant something
Stranger: people used to do it.
You: Should they be allowed to?
Stranger: the only difference is now society says it's wrong
You: Society is starting to say abortion is wrong.
Stranger: No, if they did that, humanity itself might be in danger
Stranger: well society has gone too far the wrong way
Stranger: they went from being too tough to being pussies
You: So should it be legal to kill a 6-year-old?
Stranger: I don't go by social standards. i go by my own
Stranger: i already said no
You: Why not?
Stranger: but for logical reasons, not moral ones
Stranger: you like to feel moral because you feel good
Stranger: so feel good about yourself when living people are starving to death because of a bastard child that a whore couldn't abort.
You: Why can't you kill a toddler that you can't feed, then?
Stranger: it's not accepted in our society. not all
You: Abortion is starting to be not accepted in our society.
Stranger: by some
Stranger: not all
You: Okay, how about slavery?
Stranger: christianity is also widely accepted in our society
You: Should slavery be allowed?
You: For a long time, slavery was embraced by society.
Stranger: there's no need of it. We all work for the ones who don't pay taxes. Slavery is still embraced, just hidden in a fascism
You: Sigh. I'm talking about actual, chains-and-whips-and-plantations slavery.
Stranger: well that's hard to answer
Stranger: i guess it doesn't matter. as long as it helps humanity, but even then it means nothing
Stranger: i mean the pyramids and the collosseum were built by slaves
You: Not true, actually.
Stranger: yes it is
Stranger: lol
You: Watch the History Channel. We recently discovered they were built by regular workers.
Stranger: i watch the history channel. it's not always right
You: But what good are the pyramids?
Stranger: the nostradamus effect for instance
You: They could've done the same thing with a small hole and a headstone.
Stranger: it was their religious belief.
You: So?
Stranger: btw what does this have to do with abortion?
You: You said that abortion was okay because society accepts it.
You: Society accepted slavery.
You: Society in the middle east accepts stoning rape victims.
You: Society is often horribly, horribly wrong.
Stranger: sry
Stranger: looking at something
Stranger: but if what you say is true, then you could be wrong
Stranger: there is not a damn thing you can say scientifically that says what is morally right
Stranger: other than "it's wrong"
You: So does that mean we should go into a state of anarchy where anyone can kill anyone at any age for any reason?
Stranger: that's not what im suggesting at all. You're missing the point
You: Well if morality is nonexistent what would be wrong with it?
Stranger: You think that understanding of morality means the full collapse of society
Stranger: but i'd like to show you that you are immoral. and it's ok
Stranger: please name one thing you've done selflessly
You: I've never killed anyone.
Stranger: that's not selfless. you did it because you knew if u did kill someone you'd get arrested and feel bad. That's fear of punishment
You: I wouldn't kill anyone even if it was legal.
Stranger: you calculated the pros and cons
Stranger: you say that now, because you think you'd feel bad
Stranger: you think you're better than an animal?
You: No, I don't.
You: Animals automatically behave according to a moral code that's in their genes.
You: I have the option to "sin".
Stranger: well animals kill what they need to survive. There is no moral code. it's instinct to survive
Stranger: they want to live, and every species is competing for dominance
You: Animals don't kill eachother willy nilly.
Stranger: untrue
Stranger: animals kill for territory
You: Animals even form societies to protect one another.
Stranger: yes, to survive
Stranger: it's a selfish need
Stranger: an instinct
You: yes
You: correct.
Stranger: so you've not refuted anything i've said
You: What did you say?
Stranger: that moral codes do not exist. They are rules pushed into our brains when we were young.
Stranger: Frankly, there is nothing wrong with murder
You: There isn't?
Stranger: nope
You: Okay.
You: Here's my offer.
You: Would you vote for a pro-murder politician?
You: Would you sign a law decriminalizing rape?
Stranger: noo. but not because murder is wrong. because that would have a negative effect on me, and anyone around me, which would inevitably affect me
You: Okay, how old are you?
Stranger: does that matter?
You: Yes, it does.
Stranger: im 16.
You: Would you vote for a politician who supported murdering and/or raping those 15 and under?
Stranger: i already answered you.
You: You're 16.
You: I said 15 and under.
Stranger: noo. but not because murder is wrong. because that would have a negative effect on me, and anyone around me, which would inevitably affect me
Stranger: i know people 15 and under
You: How young is your youngest friend?
Stranger: if it were people i don't know, probably not. im not completely without moral fiber, and if it takes the little effort of marking a paper, why not?
Stranger: after all, you can't wipe someone completely once they've been brainwashed
You: Okay, you vote for a politician who supported murdering and/or raping those 2 and under?
Stranger: na. i want to have a kid one day
You: So?
Stranger: i don't want him/her to be raped
You: Okay, then would vote for a politician who supported murdering those 2 and under
Stranger: i said no
Stranger: because i want kids
You: Okay, then would vote for a politician who supported murdering those 0 and under
Stranger: look man, we can continue the what if game, but the simple fact is, i use my calculations the same way u use morals, but i throw out the bullshit reasoning.
You: If you want to have a baby, how would you feel if she was killed like Zoe was?
Stranger: obviously terrible. but manslaughter is not abortion
Stranger: only the mother should eb able to abort the child
Stranger: be*
You: why?
Stranger: because it's her responsibility
Stranger: it's her pain
Stranger: it's her life,
You: It's your responsibility too.
Stranger: the father shouldn't have a say. That would be taking the mother's freedom of choice away
You: The father doesn't get a choice?
Stranger: he has the choice to stay or go
You: What about child support?
Stranger: well as i said, if the mother had 3 months to abort it, knew the father wouldn't be around, then he shouldn't pay
Stranger: my mother raised me alone without it.
You: Not everyone knows their pregnant by 3 months.
Stranger: and if they don't then they're stuck with it
Stranger: she should get tested
You: That's not taking the mother's freedom of choice away?
Stranger: well it would at that point be murder
Stranger: when she has it, she can give it up for adoption
You: I thought there was nothing wrong with murder.
Stranger: not morally, but legally
You: Okay, so whatever the law says goes?
Stranger: lol you think otherwise?
You: Because the law says abortion is also okay after 3 months.
Stranger: it's not a choice. if you break the law, you go to jail or pay a fine.
Stranger: now it does yes,
Stranger: i disagree with both sides
You: Okay, so what's wrong with killing a 6-month fetus?
Stranger: it can think.
You: So can an adult.
Stranger: it now has the main human trait
You: But you said there's nothing wrong with murder.
Stranger: i feel like im running in circles lol
Stranger: LEGALLY it's prohibited
Stranger: MORALLY, fuck it
You: But LEGALLY it's okay to kill a 6-month fetus.
Stranger: i said i disagree
You: How can you disagree with it?
You: LEGALLY it's okay, and MORALLY all murder is fine.
Stranger: no morally, im indifferent
Stranger: which leaves it to legallity
You: But it's legal to kill a 6-month fetus.
You: What basis do you have to oppose killing said fetus.
Stranger: murder is illegal
You: Yes, but abortion is not.
Stranger: i never said the law is perfect
You: But without morality what do you have to compare the law with?
Stranger: but killing something that can't think is hardly murder
Stranger: i don't need anything. Legallity in itself is a self-justifying system in many cases
You: Okay.
Stranger: btw how old r u?
You: 17.
You: You disagree with the law on 3-9 month fetuses.
You: How so?
Stranger: i've stated it about 12 times. i can;t do it again
You: If it is both morally and legally acceptable.
Stranger: because if people say murder is illegal, i agree. If people say that women should not be stuck with children they can't afford, i agree
Stranger: this is a compromise
You: The law allows abortions at 4 months, and according to you morality allows murder at ANY age.
Stranger: ah 4 months is close enough
You: 6 months then.
Stranger: morality is not something you can argue
Stranger: it's why neither of us can win this arguement. you keep your extremist opinion, and refuse my compromise
You: I just want to know what you're basing this position on.
You: It's not law and it's not morality.
You: What's the third option?
Stranger: Just because i want it legal, doesn't mean it's not a legal position, and you're right, it's not moral
You: Huh?
Stranger: the law changes. this is the way i want it to be
Stranger: so that it is fair in all positions
You: Okay, so you're talking about what the law should be.
You: So what do you base this desire on?
You: Something outside the law, obviously.
Stranger: the law is used to keep fairness. i dont hold my opinion strongly. Frankly, i hope i never need abortion, but it's possible
You: Okay, so your opinion is based on fairness?
Stranger: yes.
You: Is it fair for a woman to be denied an abortion just because she found out she was pregnant too late?
Stranger: yes. she wasn't careful enough.
You: Is it fair for a woman to be denied an abortion at 2 and a half months??
Stranger: nope
You: she wasn't careful enough either.
You: both got pregnant.
Stranger: but the child didn't suffer
Stranger: he didnt feel anything
Stranger: therefore he didnt exist
You: Is abortion at 9 months fair if the child is anesthetized?
Stranger: no. it can still think
Stranger: it was alive
Stranger: that's like saying "is it ok to kill a human if he's asleep?"
You: And the 2-month baby is not alive?
Stranger: morally, sure, but legally, nope
Stranger: a fucking tree is alive
Stranger: doesnt make it special
You: Why does mental capacity make you special?
Stranger: because it differenciates you from a tree.
You: So does size and mobility.
Stranger: you cant be mobile without a brain
Stranger: and do u think anyone would care about you if you stood in the yard all damn day?
Stranger: no matter how big u are
Stranger: ive been on defense this whole arguement and it's kinda boring.
You: So what's so special about mental capability that distinguishes it from all the other differences between you and a tree?
You: Species also distinguishes us from a tree.
Stranger: because without it, you would not argue, you could not laugh, or cry or feel. you would not be human.
Stranger: Frankly i don't care if a braindead person dies
You: I would be human.
Stranger: not to me
You: Every cell in my body would still be screaming "Homo s. sapiens"
Stranger: the cells that can't speak. the ones that die all the time and don't amount to shit.
Stranger: people die all the time. might as well get used to it
Stranger: it will NEVER change
You: But it's not fair to kill people.
Stranger: how? death is unbias. IF you die because you pissed someone off, you paid the consequences
Stranger: if you die from cancer, that's unfair too
Stranger: death is random
You: So you think murder is fair but abortion at 5 months isn't?
Stranger: a living person has a chance to live.
You: A 3-month fetus is alive.
Stranger: it hasn't thought or experienced anything
Stranger: it doesnt hurt
Stranger: it doesnt care
You: A person under anesthesia doesn't hurt or care either
Stranger: ive adressed this already
Stranger: besides, why not kill someone under anesthesia? he's lived.
You: Okay, so all that matters is if you've experienced something?
Stranger: it's fair to the mother that she gets a chance to escape poverty, and it's fair that the child get's a chance to live.
Stranger: there is no other way that offers both
Stranger: you've taken the side of a fetus over a human
You: What species would you class a human's fetus as?
Stranger: i mean a real person
You: The mother who finds out she's pregnant at 4 months has no chance to escape poverty.
Stranger: not a mass of flesh that isn't even alive
Stranger: well that mother had a chance and blew it
You: If the fetus isn't alive, why does it need food?
You: The fetus that's killed at 2.9 months gets no chance to live.
Stranger: need i use the tree analogy again?
You: A tree is alive.
Stranger: would you save it over a human?
You: No, I wouldn't.
You: What species would you class a human's fetus as?
Stranger: human, but it's more similar to a tree.
Stranger: but why not save a tree over a human?
You: We've established that the fetus is human
You: And is alive.
Stranger: a tree is alive
You: A tree is not human.
Stranger: so?
Stranger: what makes u better than a tree? u asked the same question.
You: I'm not better than a tree. I only ask for protection from my fellow humans.
You: If I was a tree, I'd save the tree over the human.
Stranger: so your moral code is exclusive?
You: My moral code applies to intraspecies conduct.
Stranger: so it is
Stranger: so you're looking at species. i look at individuals
You: Individuals make up a species.
Stranger: i'd rather save my dog than some people. is that morally wrong?
You: In addition, "species" is a characterisitc of individuals
You: yes
Stranger: so you are bias
You: Not horribly wrong, though.
Stranger: doesnt matter
You: I'm more concerned about direct aggression.
You: If you would choose to kill a person over a dog, that is immoral.
Stranger: i dont care. your moral code says save humans over animals, even though you say you are not better and humans are no better
Stranger: in my world, that is called hypocracy
You: No, my moral code says to prefer my own species.
You: If I was a dog, I'd save the dog.
Stranger: but you're not a dog, you're not a fetus, and you're not a mother
You: I used to be a fetus.
You: I am a human.
Stranger: the mother was a fetus too
You: Yes, and I wouldn't kill her either.
You: Thus, my morality tells me to stick up for other humans.
Stranger: but u prefer the fetus over the mother
You: No.
You: If a fetus wanted to abort his mother, I'd standup for the mother.
Stranger: it's death u have a problem with
You: I have a problem with violence.
Stranger: what do u believe happens after death?
You: I don't know.
Stranger: what do u think?
You: I've never died.
Stranger: well you've never been a mother, you cant remember being a fetus and you've never died...
You: I don't remember being 2 either, but I can still say it's wrong to kill toddlers.
Stranger: but you'd kill every toddler in the world if it meant saving yourself
You: So what?
Stranger: it's a strawman
Stranger: your moral code is easily dropped
You: I don't think rationally under pressure.
You: That's why we have laws.
Stranger: now you've had 2 hours, and you've not convinced me
You: If we could trust people to be moral, we wouldn't need the law.
Stranger: give me one reason why killing babies is wrong?
You: Just one?
Stranger: yep .one irrefutable one
You: It deprives them of their future, as does murder at any age.
Stranger: but why is that matter?
You: Why does it matter that a tree can't think?
You: Killing babies also goes against the biological origin of the very concept of morality.
Stranger: lol biological origin?
You: Yes.
You: Morality evolved as a survival instinct for species.
Stranger: instincts and morals are not the same
You: Without the instincts we'd have no concept of "right" and "wrong"
Stranger: you know right from wrong because you were told
Stranger: not because you evolved
You: Even babies have morals.
You: Animals too.
Stranger: no they don't
Stranger: they have instincts
You: And where exactly did my parents get the knowledge of right and wrong?
Stranger: from their parents
You: Where did the concept originate?
Stranger: and over time, as it benefitted more people, they made up better moralities
Stranger: and passed them on like a religion
You: Where did my grandparents learn of morality?
Stranger: sorry, but im done this retarded conversation. bye :)
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
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