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You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

Stranger: Hi.

You: Hey there.

You: How do you feel about abortion?

Stranger: I feel that people should be allowed to have an abortion under certain conditions.

You: Which circumstances would these be?

Stranger: For example, if the would-be mother is very young or is for some reason not fit to be a mother.

You: Does this apply through all 9 months?

Stranger: No, the abortion would have to be early on.

You: Why?

You: Why does the baby get more important as she ages?

Stranger: I don't know, but according to my country's laws it must be withing a certain time limit.

Stranger: And I figure that there must be a reason for that.

You: What's your country?

Stranger: Iceland.

You: Okay, I don't know much about Icelandic law.

You: But in the USA, slavery used to be legal.

You: The Holocaust was completely legal.

You: The law is a terrible yardstick for morality.

Stranger: Are you implying that you think abortion is wrong?

You: Sorry, I should've stated that.

You: I oppose homicide.

You: Abortion in and of itself is not wrong; it's the killing of the embryo or fetus, not the termination of the pregnancy, that I have a problem with.

Stranger: Well, I am not very opinionated on this matter.

Stranger: I do believe that under certain conditions, abortion can be justified.

You: Is this your view, or the view of Icelandic laws?

Stranger: It is also my view.

You: Why?

Stranger: If, for example, the would-be mother was the victim of rape, would you require her to have the child?

You: If a child was conceived of rape, would you punish him for a crime committed before he even existed?

Stranger: Well, I don't think the mother would love the child as much as she would love her own child.

You: So, it's okay to kill someone if their mother doesn't love them?

Stranger: So being born into these circumstances is punishment all of its own.

You: I have a few friends whose mothers were raped, and they're glad to be aliv.

You: alive*

Stranger: Well, if the fetus is only a few weeks old it doesn't really have a consciousness.
I don't think it can feel a thing at that stage.

You: Does that really matter?

You: The same thing can be said of anyone under general anesthesia.

Stranger: Well, the fetus is barely alive.

You: There's no such thing.

Stranger: Some consider the life to start when you're born.

You: You're alive or you aren't.

Stranger: True.

Stranger: However, there is a difference.

You: The embryo is growing, developing, reacting to stimuli, and requires nutrients.

You: Any high school biology textbook will tell you what that means.

Stranger: Yes, however, I do not consider a fetus to be a person.
That's just my opinion. Arguing about it won't change anything.

You: Do you consider a fetus to be a human being?

Stranger: Yes.

You: So, you think some human beings aren't people?

Stranger: If they are not yet born, have never had any contact with anyone, do not have a personality, then you could say they're not persons.

You: What do you mean by "personality" and "contact"?

Stranger: The fetus has had no impact on the world, other than on the mother.
I don't think I need to explain personality.

You: Because later-term babies can recognize their parents' voice.

You: Well, I'm not sure newborns would qualify, then.

Stranger: Well, as you said, "later-term babies can recognize their parents' voice." When they are just a few weeks old, they can't.

You: But you also said "If they are not yet born".

You: And my mother is pregnant with twins ATM. They have quite an impact on me.

Stranger: I said before that I do not approve of abortion after the fetus is months old.
I think that's morally wrong.

You: Why?

Stranger: Well, they are closer to being persons. I can't really explain it.

You: She's the same person no matter how old she is.

Stranger: She?

Stranger: And is "she" really?

You: Is she really what?

Stranger: Really the same person. Would you consider a group of cells that could be anyone the same person as when the individual is grown up?

You: Yes.

You: Even a newborn is a group of cells that could be anyone.

You: Who you are is constantly shaped until you die.

Stranger: Yes, but it starts after you're born.

You: Actually, that's not true.

Stranger: Okay, what the mother eats has an effect before you're born.

Stranger: But I don't think you could have a considerable impact on personality.

You: Things like music and food preferences are influenced by conditions in utero.

Stranger: Has that been proven?

You: Yes.

You: Not until 32 weeks, but yes.

You: http://www.ehd.org/dev_article_unit18.php#memorymusicpref

Stranger: Aha.

Stranger: Well, that's 8 months.

You: Yes, but that's before birth.

Stranger: I never said abortion was right after such a long time.

You: Okay, so take out the "are not yet born" part from your justification.

Stranger: Well, okay.

You: Okay, so someone needs to have an impact on the world to have rights?

Stranger: No.

You: Then why bring it up?

Stranger: I don't know. I wasn't sure how to define "person". I'm kinda tired.

You: Okay.

You: Well, you wanna email me when you're rested?

You: I think it makes sense to define "person" as "human being".

Stranger: I'd say a person is a "self-conscious or rational being."

You: http://wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=person

You: Well, if that's your standard you're gonna need to support infanticide.

Stranger: Self conscious being the key word there.

You: Self-consciousness comes at 1 year after birth at the earliest.

You: 18 months possibly.

Stranger: Well, a new-born has feeling.

You: Some people do follow that standard to its logical conclusion.

Stranger: feelings*

You: I know a guy who considers infants and those with severe mental handicaps to be nonpersons.

You: I hope you don't.

Stranger: I don't.

You: Then clearly self-consciousness is a terrible yardstick.

You: You seem to be grasping at straws now and contradicting yourself in order to support a conclusion instead of building one from the facts.

You: You're following the logical process backwards.

Stranger: I admit, I do not think about the subject very much and I have not prepared myself for this argument beforehand.

You: Your conclusions should flow from your arguments, not vice versa.

You: Well, if you haven't thought about it, I would suggest not taking a stance until you do.

Stranger: I do have an opinion, it's just not one I think about often.
Honestly, I don't even know why I'm still here.

Stranger: It must be pure stubbornness.

You: There's really no reason I've found to deny someone their human rights because of age.

You: Must be.

You: How did you form your opinion?

Stranger: I'm not sure.

You: You should look at your beliefs.

You: Your standard of self-consciousness clearly fails when scritinized.

Stranger: How so?

You: Well, you do not support killing other human beings that fail that standard.

You: I'd say you only apply it prenatally, but you oppose late-term abortions.

You: I'm not sure how it comes into play to support your stance.

Stranger: All right.

Stranger: Well, would you say an animal is a person?

You: Depends on the animal.

Stranger: Is a chimpanzee a person?

You: No.

Stranger: What animal would you say is a person?

You: Humans.

Stranger: Okay. I meant animals other than humans. I should have specified that.

You: Personally, I do not.

Stranger: Because there is a difference between animals and humans, is there not?

You: Humans are animals.

Stranger: Again, when I say animals I mean animals other than humans.

You: Yes, there is.

You: DNA

You: Species.

Stranger: Okay. Would you say it is wrong to kill a dog? Or an ape?

You: No, I would not.

You: But if we're going by mental capabilities, we're back to the issue of newborns.

Stranger: Why? The only difference between us and them is DNA, as you said.

You: And species.

You: That's important.

Stranger: Different DNA, different species.

Stranger: It goes hand in hand.

You: Morality itself evolved as a sort of biological leash upon interactions within a species.

You: Not true; my sister and I have different DNA but we're both human.

You: All species have some degree of morality.

Stranger: Yes, but the amount of difference is what makes you a different species.

You: I guess.

You: I've gotta go soon; could you email me?

Stranger: So, the only real difference between you and a dog is DNA.

Stranger: Why? So we can continue arguing?
I don't see the point.

You: I'd like to expand on the basis of my morality.

You: This is much more interesting than 94% of the conversations here.

Stranger: Incidentally, 94% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot.

You: True.

Stranger: Well, I guess you could have my e-mail, but don't expect me to e-mail you first.
I will most likely reply, though.

[snip]

Stranger: Anyways, the point that I was getting at was that when the fetus is only a few weeks old the difference between it and the fetuses of other mammals is minimal.

Stranger: The only real difference is DNA.

You: There's a minimal difference up until 18 months

You: We shouldn't assign rights based on mental capacity.

Stranger: There is significant difference between born individuals.

You: I'll continue on email i g2g.

You have disconnected.

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