Sunday, May 16, 2010

Kill the baby ... I am for it

Stranger: Errr... not. Ever heard of abortion?.
You: no
Stranger: You are able to abort the baby before it is born if you do it early enough in the pregnancy.
You: what does that mean?
You: u abort a computer program u cant abort a baby
Stranger: Kill the baby before it is born (before it has a heartbeat)
You: ok, so kill the baby
You: y didnt u just say
Stranger: Because killing requires actual life (a hearbeat), abortion is before the baby is alive.
You: lol life doesnt need a heartbeat
Stranger: I know, but legally that's the difference.
Stranger: A baby is legally alive once it has a heartbeat.


You: wait so its not legally alive without a heartbeat?
Stranger: Yeah, it isn't legally alive until it has a heartbeat, at least in most coutries.
You: thats dumb
Stranger: Hence abortion isn't considered as murder.
You: im in 7th grade and i know what alive means
Stranger: Yeah, but legal life and biological life are totally different things.
You: they shouldnt be
You: i mean what if i decided u werent legally alive how would u feel
You: laws should agree with science
Stranger: Bad, but it is a decision made with logical reasoning.
You: otherwise its whatever some lawyer decides
Stranger: ITs not only 'some' lawyer somewhere... it is the the people who make law. In US = Congress.
You: ok then its whatever congress decides
Stranger: Have you ever seen medical series in which when some1 dies and their heart meter goes into a straight line?
You: yeah and then they yell CLEAR and do the paddle thingy
Stranger: Yeah! Well, a baby without a heartbeat has a straight line.
Stranger: Hence its not legally alive.
You: but they're still alive when theres a flat line
You: u can bring them back until the brain dies
Stranger: Technically yes, but legally they are dead and hence cannot be murdered.
You: not sure thats right
Stranger: IT enables abortion to be legalised.
You: im 88% sure thats wrong
You: lemme google it
You: ok
You: it used to be the heartbeat but they changed it
Stranger: It also depends in what country you are.
You: ok
You: well lemme google that
Stranger: I mean, laws are different in different countries.
You: ok in the usa its legal until birth
Stranger: Fair enough. :)
You: no thats not fair!
Stranger: Well... yeah, it isn't exactly fair towards the baby.
You: and everyone's been a baby
You: so its not fair 2 anyone
Stranger: Well, abortion is good if the mother might die because of having a baby.
You: couldnt they just do a csection?
Stranger: C-sections are dangerous.
You: my bff was born that way
You: they did it to save her mom's life
Stranger: Yeah, but nevertheless it isn't totally riskless.
You: nothing is
You: but its better than killing hte baby
You: the*
Stranger: True.
You: i mean doctors should help not hurt
You: thats what doctors do
You: so if they can they should try and save mom and baby, right?
Stranger: Yeah, but if the mother wants to abort, she has the right to.
You: that makes no sense
You: u dont get 2 kill som1 just because u want to
You: thats messed up thinking
Stranger: It does, if you didn't plan to be pregnant, you got raped and are having a baby because of it.
You: so its the baby;s fault?
Stranger: No, it isn't the baby's fault.
You: so y is the baby punished
Stranger: I don't know.
Stranger: Because the mother doesn't want to be punished herself?
You: the baby didnt even exist when it happened
You: u cant just kill som1 2 make urself happier
Stranger: Nevertheless abortion is the biggest cause of death in the US.
You: more than cancer?
Stranger: So, go figure out how intelligent people are.
Stranger: Yes. More than cancer.
Stranger: And more than stroke.
You: more than heart attacks?
Stranger: Yes. At least so I have read.
You: and its legal?
Stranger: But it is what some1 could call 'easy' killing, because it is legal.
You: it shouldnt b
Stranger: So, there is some heated discussion in the medical world about the subject.
You: thats stupid
Stranger: Some say it shouldn't be done, and some say its the mother's right to abort.
You: r these ppl supervilins?
You: u cant kill ur kids thats wrong
You: evil
Stranger: Not really. They are just normal people.
You: wow
Stranger: They don't think it as 'killing their own kids'. They might think of it as 'killing the potential kids' they wouldn't want to raise anyway.
You: wtf is a potential kid
Stranger: So, sometimes it is used as a form of contraceptions...
You: ur a kid or u arent
You: doesnt contraception mean stopping conception?
You: thats like saying my mom could kill me now
Stranger: Well... its a moral question, a legal question and a biological question.
Stranger: So, some people are against it and some are for.
You: wow
You: some are for
Stranger: Personally I am for it only in some specific cases.
You: really?
You: like what?
Stranger: Yes, like rape victims.
You: omg
You: so instead if killing hte rapist we kill an innocent baby
You: that makes total sense
Stranger: That's why it is the victims choice.
You: so the victim can decide to make her baby into a second victim
You: thats stupid
You: the baby did nothing wrong
Stranger: She didn't want to have sex, she was raped, can you also force her to keep the baby and have to pay for the baby?
You: she could put the baby for adoption
You: but the rapist should get an extra punishment for forcing her 2 become a mom and abandoning his kid
Stranger: That's why rapists DO get punished extremely severely.
You: i hate rape as u can imagine
You: but its dumb 2 punish the baby with deat h4 something that she didnt do
You: something she didnt even EXIST when it happened
You: we dont even kill rapists, do we/?
Stranger: In most countries you do not.
You: but we kil innocent babis
You: babies
Stranger: Innocent babies that can't feel pain, don't have a heartbeat and haven't been born.
You: so?
You: i could kill u painlessly
Stranger: But I have been born and have a heartbeat.
Stranger: Which legally change the situation.
You: well its legal even after the heartbeat
Stranger: Yeah, but its 'the woman's body, and she can do whatever she wants with it' (feminist approach lol)
You: its not the woman's body thats killed
You: thats not feminist
Stranger: Well... as long as it is attached to the woman, it is part of the woman, hence she can decide.
You: thats not true
You: attached to does not mean part of
Stranger: True. But thats just how the cookie crumbles.
You: feminist means men and women get the same rights
You: im pretty sure everyone htinks that now
You: thinks*
Stranger: feminism has lots of other faces too.
You: men cant kill babies either
Stranger: Men can't get pregnant.
You: but they cant kill babies neither can women
You: if a man got pregnant its not like itd magically be okay to kill his babuy
You: baby*
Stranger: It would in most places in the world. It would be OK, which I find is morally wrong in most cases.
You: what?
Stranger: Abortion is legal, but morally wrong.
You: then it shouldnt b legal
Stranger: Go tell that to legislators.
You: i cant vote :(
Stranger: Shame...
You: yeh
You: im smarter than congress apparently
Stranger: Perhaps, however abortion is useful for women in some situations.
You: so?
You: killing born folks can be useful
Stranger: True...
You: my aunt had 9 kids im sure itd be nice if she could shoot a few
Stranger: She had the choice to use contraception.
You: idk maybe she did
You: but it doesnt matter her kids cant be killed
Stranger: They 'can' be killed but its illegal.
You: ok yes
You: smarty pants
Stranger: and immoral too.
Stranger: And against religion.
You: yeah
You: y does religion matter?
Stranger: Are you familiar with the Catholic 10 Commandments? number 5 = Do not kill.
You: thats pretty much standard morality
Stranger: Yeah.
You: btw, that applies to every1 not just born ppl
Stranger: Every human being.
You: yes
You: correct
You: even unborn humans
Stranger: YEah, but when is the unborn human a true human?
You: what else could it be, a puppy?
Stranger: No, I am asking WHEN is it a human?
You: if it exists its a human
Stranger: But WHEN does it actually exist?
You: oh i know this one!
You: "In sexual reproduction, male and female gametes fuse to create a genetically distinct organism of the parents' species."
You: science rules!
Stranger: Yeah, that's how it works.
You: ^.^
You: im a smart person!
Stranger: Yeah :)
You: so, yeah.
You: we all start as a single cell
Stranger: But its smaller than an ant and it won't feel anything. Would you care killing an ant?
You: personally, yes.
You: i always catch the bugs and let them outside
Stranger: Ok, so you are a 'Pro-life' person. Go you!
You: but theres a difference between an ant and a person
Stranger: Yeah.
Stranger: Are you a veagan?
You: totaly different species
You: no
You: y?
Stranger: Some people claim eating meat equals murder.
You: not unless its people meat lol
You: plus, my meat comes prekilled
Stranger: True. Mine as well.
You: yeah eating live animals wud b gross lol
Stranger: But some people are vegans because the animals suffer in their cages.
You: the suffering has already happened when itgets to me
You: but they arent people anyway
You: the babies are
Stranger: True.
Stranger: So, are you for or against capital punishment?
You: whats that
Stranger: Like death for murderers, for example?
You: lol nope
You: killing ppl because they killed ppl?
You: that makes no sense
Stranger: Yeah, barbaric.
You: plus what if u get the wrong guy
Stranger: However some US States think it works.
You: ah
Stranger: There is a book about a guy who was in Death Row for 10 years for a crime he didn't do.
You: that sux
You: but anyway babies are human i mean look @ the dna
Stranger: Yeah. But mothers still choose to kill them.
Stranger: Sometimes.
You: mothers choose 2 kill born kids too
Stranger: Yeah, they are punished for that though.
You: which makes sense
Stranger: yes
You: but we should really see y they did that
You: thats not normal
Stranger: Sometimes having a baby can affect your life radically.
You: yeah it can
Stranger: That's the main reason why mothers abort.
You: so we need to help moms
Stranger: Exactly.
You: i still think if moms knew what they were doing they wouldnt do it
Stranger: Yeah. Very true.
You: its not a "potential baby"
Stranger: But many people in this world want to go through where the fence is at its lowest.
You: huh?
Stranger: They want to choose the easiest option for themselves.
You: im sure the guilt would be terrible
Stranger: Because they are selfish or lazy.
You: maybe itd be easy @ 1st but it woul haunt them
You: would*
Stranger: I think people who don't want to have babies shouldn't be pregnant in the first place.
You: i know
You: but if they get pregnant its not their baby's fault
Stranger: Exactly.
You: so thay shouldnt b allowed to kill the baby
You: they
Stranger: What you are saying is indeed very smart.
You: its science class + common sense
You: thank u anyway
Stranger: Yeah. But many people on earth aren't very smart.
You: thats what we have laws 4
You: :]
Stranger: Laws are there to try to prevent crime by punishing those who do not obey them.
You: yeah
You: i mean some ppl used to think it was okay to kill black ppl
Stranger: Yeah, and Hitler thought it was fine to kill Jews.
You: if we could trust ppl 2 be smart and moral we wouldnt need any laws
Stranger: That would be a utopia.
You: whats a utopia
Stranger: an imaginary society where everything is perfect.
You: ok
You: that would be awsome
Stranger: Yeah, shame it is impossible.
You: never say never
Stranger: Lets just say 'highly unlikely' then.
You: ok
You: i wish i could vote so i could save the babies
You: =[
Stranger: Hopefully one day your vote will make it illegal.
You: yeah
You: or maybe someone will give the government a science book
You: or a dictionary even
Stranger: Oh no... politicians don't do science.
You: they should
Stranger: They totally should.
You: especially if they're deciding who we can kill
Stranger: Well, sometimes they base their views on things like morality and religion, which are just points of view, while science is generally accurate.
You: i know
You: but even morality says thow shalt not kill
Stranger: Yeah, and most religions too.
Stranger: Except islam, in which you are allowed to stone women to death.
You: i heard about that
Stranger: Its a bit 'strange'.
You: feminists shud focus on that and not on killing babys
Stranger: Yeah, but islamic countries and leaders are clever people. They say we have to respect everything their holy book says.
You: so its in a book that makes it ok?
Stranger: Otherwise we are dishonouring them and they can use it as an excuse to kill us.
Stranger: Yeah, for them, it is a book which is literally God's word.
You: thats weird
Stranger: And everything within the book (which is a bit unclear) is law.
You: odd
Stranger: Even I could write a book like that and claim its God's word.
You: i wish i could write a holy book
You: the world would b a better place
Stranger: Well... you can.
You: how old is that book anyway?
Stranger: Like 1500 years at least.
You: holy crud
Stranger: So, imagine if you had lived 1600 years ago and written a Holy book and people would have believed you... your book would still be used as a holy book perhaps.
You: wow
You: then again i would only know what ppl knew back then
You: they didnt know about sperm and egg and all that gud stuff
Stranger: Yeah... but most of the islamic countries are totally blinded by their blind beliefs.
You: thats so sad :(
Stranger: Yeah, but Islam is generally a quite kind religion, but it has some weird rules.
Stranger: And extremists change meanings.
You: if theres killing women its doesnt matter how kind it is
Stranger: Like 'hijad' is a fight against oneself inside ones mind.
Stranger: Not actual killing other people outside your mind.
You: u still think its ok?
Stranger: Abortion? Only in some cases maybe.
You: like when?
You: its not the baby's fault
Stranger: If the baby has a genetic illness that will make him/her be incapable of life.
You: so we can kill sick people?
Stranger: Only sick people that will die anyway.
You: we will all die anyway
Stranger: Yeah but I meant a kind of illness that would make the baby suffer for its whole life.
Stranger: Suffer actual unbearable pain.
You: so anyone in pain we can kill?
You: even without permission?
Stranger: Not anyone.
Stranger: Well, you can't ask a baby's permission.
You: so you cant kill them
You: you dont get to decide the baby should die
Stranger: and if medically we would know that its going to die 10 days after birth and be in unbearable pain for the time.
You: we shouldnt play god
Stranger: So we shouldn't have sex and expect God to give us our babies?
You: what?
You: i mean we dont get to decide who lives and who dies
Stranger: Yeah, but have you ever heard of euthanasia?
You: no
You: is it killing sick ppl?
Stranger: Its assisted suicide or 'mercy-killing'
Stranger: Basically killing a person who would otherwise suffer too much.
You: well assisted suicide is one thing
You: its fine if u wanna die just dont force any1 2 help u
You: but you cant just decide someone shouldnt live
Stranger: What if you are in a coma?
You: so?
You: if i was in a coma id want to be kept alive at all costs
Stranger: What if you were unable to move anything except your little finger and you were in excruciating pain?
Stranger: Would you like to live?
You: better than being dead
You: the point is you dont get to decide for me
Stranger: Of course not, but when a baby is going to die in birth certainly, why not abort it before it has to suffer?
You: we're all going to suffer in our lives
You: you can't push your wishes on what life is worth living on someone else
Stranger: That's true.
You: if you want to die, you can choose that
You: some people would rather live
Stranger: True. But I am talking about a baby that has a genetic incurable illness that will kill it in birth.
You: there;s a difference between dying of natural causes and being murdered
Stranger: The baby won't see the difference...
You: there is still a difference
Stranger: For the mother and us perhaps.
You: morally
Stranger: Yeah.
Stranger: But how would you feel if a doctor told you that your baby is going to die when its born. Would you like to carry it for 9 months knowing that?
You: yes.
Stranger: You would lose your job, because of it and you would then have no money...
You: and that makes it okay to kill someone?
Stranger: To kill someone who will die anyway...
You: we will all die anyway
Stranger: To kill some1 painlessly who would die painfully anyway.
You: some of us will die painfully
Stranger: You say all humans are equal?
Stranger: Its a nice idea, and I would hope it was true, but apparently it isn't :(
You: what do you mean?
Stranger: At least not in this world we live in.
Stranger: Well... first of all gender seems to matter, age matters, colour matters, lots of things seem to matter.
You: im confused
You: anyway
Stranger: Well, it is different to kill a baby that will die anyway, than kill a 50 year old woman.
You: it is not
You: we're all going to die, some sooner than others
Stranger: How can you predict the future? :D
You: how can you?
Stranger: I cannot.
You: oh, right back at you!
You: snap!
Stranger: I am saying all possibilities are open, hence you saying 'we're all going to die, sooner or later' is wrong.
You: then the possibility that teh baby will live is open
Stranger: Yeah.
You: so why kill them?
You: if you want to die in a situation, thats up to u
Stranger: Because we can predict it will die if it has a genetic illness that has always done that before?
You: you cant decide if others die
You: people have always died before
Stranger: I love you, dear. I hope more people were like you ;)
You: if we're going from what's happened before, we will all de
You: thank you
You: but you don;t get to decide that someone else should die just because thats what you would want
Stranger: I mean... you CAN do it, but its not right.
Stranger: and its punishable.
You: its not
You: even for babies
Stranger: Yeah.
You: so its wrong to abort them
Stranger: :)
Stranger: Very true.
You: so you shouldnt be for it
Stranger: Im only for it in the very rare cases, in which the baby would suffer.
Stranger: I just don't like babies that suffer.
You: but you don;t get to decide that someone else should die just because thats what you would want
Stranger: What if its a situation in which the baby will kill both the mother and itself if its not aborted?
Stranger: Safe the mother by killing the baby...
You: then the doctor does whatever they can do to save both
Stranger: Even if they must kill the baby in order to do so?
You: kill the baby to save both?
Stranger: No, kill the baby to save the mother?
You: they should just take the baby out and do everything they can to save the baby
Stranger: Yeah, but taking the baby out might mean killing it.
You: and they should try to save it
You: they shouldnt kill it directly but if it dies and they cant save it thats ok
Stranger: Oh, so trying to save the person you tried to kill justifies trying to kill it?
You: what?
You: not being born would kill the baby so they're trying to save it, not kill it
Stranger: Yeah, but they can't possible save some babies by taking them out.
Stranger: Some babies simply are too small and fragile, and might be underdeveloped.
Stranger: Like for example have no heart.
You: and they will kill the mother when so small?
You: they have a heart b4 theyre the size of a gummy bear
Stranger: If its a genetic blood illness (very rare), perhaps.
Stranger: I was just speculating on very rare cases in which abortion might be the best solution.
You: couldnt they put it in another woman?
Stranger: ... Well, in theory, perhaps, but its quite complex.
You: then they should try that
Stranger: What if they know that it has a 99% failure chance? and no other woman feels like opening their guts...?
You: then they can call me
Stranger: Anyhow, my example was just a speculation of a very rare case in which abortion might be the right choice.
Stranger: 99.0
You: 99% is better than the 100% chance of abortion
Stranger: 99.9% of abortions are wrong.
Stranger: I am trying to keep an open-mind :D
You: not sure it counts as abortion if u try and save the baby
You: in abortion, you try and kill the baby
You: if that's the case, its wrong
Stranger: Well, if you know the baby will die anyway.
You: no, its still wrong
Stranger: If the baby is somewhat like a tumour to the mother, lol.
You: what?
Stranger: Nevermind, I am speculating.
Stranger: These things will never happen.
You: babies are never tumors
Stranger: I know, but if the baby would have a huge tumour in itself...which would be deadly to the mother.
You: then you remove the tumor
Stranger: Yeah, but what if you kill the baby by removing it?
You: its just a tumor
Stranger: What if you HAVE to kill the baby to remove it.
You: you do all you can to save both
You: abortion is trying to kill
Stranger: What if there is nothing you can do to save the baby?
Stranger: Is doing 'nothing' doing something?
You: you try
Stranger: You try by doing nothing?
You: no, you try by removing the tumor and stitching the baby back up
Stranger: What if there is almost no baby left when the tumour is removed?
You: what do u mean?
Stranger: Like the tumour being 95% of the baby's body...
Stranger: Highly unlikely... lol
You: how is the tumor threatening the mom
Stranger: The tumour can grow too much and destroy the mothers vital organs?
Stranger: I don't know! I am not a doctor lol.
You: then you stop the tumor from growing
Stranger: I just watch Gray's Anatomy too much.
You: you could stop the tumor from growing too much
You: then you wait until the baby is strong enough to operate on
Stranger: Sometimes it might not be possible.
You: then you do the best you can
You: if the best isn't good enough, thats not your fault
Stranger: What if the mother has cancer and needs cancer treatment which can damage the baby?>
You: how bad is the cancer?
Stranger: If we wait till the baby is born it will be terminal and the woman will die.
Stranger: If we treat now the mother will survive, but the baby will die.
You: then just wait and birth the baby early
Stranger: What if its just too late that way?
You: huh?
Stranger: What if its risky that if they wait too long and try to deliver the baby too early, both the baby and the mother will die?
You: the goal should always be to save both patients
Stranger: Some1 has to choose, something... Who gets to do the choice?
You: the goal of abortion is to kill
Stranger: Yeah, in my case, its basically, abort now and have treatment, or don't abort and die.
Stranger: Or have the treatment now and kill the baby.
You: why will the treatment kill the baby?
Stranger: Radiation treatment isn't exactly very healthy for babies.
You: then you sheild the baby from the radiation
Stranger: All cancer treatments are bad for babies, unluckily.
Stranger: What if its bowel cancer? You can't shield the baby and treat bowel cancer.
You: why not?
Stranger: Because you can't shield the baby...
You: why cant you?
Stranger: Radiation goes through you.
Stranger: and if the cancer is in the bowel, its too near the baby.
Stranger: You don't exactly want to play hit and miss with that lol.
You: so you put a sheild around the baby like the vest u wear when u have an xray
Stranger: But how do you put the vest when its inside the mother?
You: uve never seen where they do the surgery in the womb?
Stranger: I have, but you can't do that. The mothers body will reject the vest.
You: what do u mean?
Stranger: Besides, it would need to be one huge vest.
You: babies arent that big
Stranger: Radiation goes through a lot of thick metal.
You: u just have to sheild enough so its not deadly
Stranger: You can't put a huge metal thingy inside a womb without risking death of the mother and baby.
Stranger: Besides it wouldn't matter... the radiation goes into the mothers bloodstream.
Stranger: and affects the baby no matter what.
You: im not a doctor but the goal should b to save as many lives as possible
You: the goal of abortion is to take a life
Stranger: So, if by taking a life you can save a life, shouldn't you do it?
You: its like conjoined twins, sometimes being conjoined threatens both their lives, so they separate even if its risky
You: the death of the baby would be a tragic sideaffect
Stranger: These are tough questions... I don't want to be a doctor lol.
You: yeah
You: i think saving one life is better than losing 2
Stranger: This is called utilitarism, check it out :)
You: no its not i know about it
You: utilitarianism says you can murder babies up to a year old
Stranger: Ok... yeah, lol... I don't seem to remember my philosophy lessons from a few years back.
Stranger: Does it really?
You: aparently lemme google it
Stranger: Anyhow, I think I need to eat something.
You: ok peter singer
You: he says babies dont have rights because they're dumb
You: pretty much
You: not smarter than animals and not selfaware so they can be killed
You: and that its okay to kill disabled babies (not just those that will die quickly) and try again
Stranger: lol
You: because healthy babies are happier
You: and overall happiness would be more by killing
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