Friday, May 14, 2010

or else it would be illegal

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: hi
Stranger: I have one eye
You: how do u feel about abortion?
Stranger: why do you ask?
You: because im trying to bring up a topic on omegle other than sex
Stranger: I see...
Stranger: Well it doesn't really matter to me to be honest
You: Okay.
You: How do you feel about infanticide?
Stranger: As in killing newborns?
You: Yes.
Stranger: Well obviously I'm against it unless there is other circumstances involved beside just killing the child
You: Does it matter to you?
Stranger: Your trying to compare it to abortion aren't you?
You: Nope.
You: Just trying to find where you draw the line.
Stranger: I see
Stranger: Well if it ain't justified is ain't right
You: If what ain't justified?
Stranger: Anything
You: Okay.
You: Does it take more to justify infanticide?
Stranger: Yes.
You: More than it takes to justify abortion?
Stranger: I knew it
You: Knew what?
Stranger: That you were comparing it to abortion
You: Well, both kill an innocent human being.
You: Or is the fetus not human?
Stranger: Well, technically in abortions they remove a fertilized egg, kind of like how they take eggs out of women and fertilize them and re inset them
Stranger: reinsert*
Stranger: Well what classifies a human?
You: A human is any organism of the species H. sapiens sapiens.
Stranger: Fair enough
You: And last I checked, when organisms reproduce they make more of their species.
Stranger: Yes they do
Stranger: But can you consider the fetus or the embryo living if it isn't conscious of its surroundings?
You: Well, the fetus was produced by humans.
You: Yes.
Stranger: Why?
You: Same reason a tree is alive.
You: It grows, develops, metabolizes
Stranger: Going by that logic, we shouldn't cut down trees then.
You: Trees aren't human.
Stranger: So?
Stranger: Does that mean we should kill another living being for our own needs?
Stranger: If it is from a different species?
You: Let's see if I can put it another way.
You: Do you think it's fine to kill a premature baby?
Stranger: Thats completely different though, there's a point where you can no longer have an abortion
You: When is that point?
Stranger: I believe the third trimester something like that let me look
You: abortion is the termination of a pregnancy following, resulting in, and closely followed by the death of the embryo or fetus
Stranger: It stops after the second trimester
Stranger: so the beginning of the third
You: What's your source for that?
Stranger: The internet
Stranger: But if we are calling sources, then where is your source for that part you just said
You: Princeton's WordNet lists it as "the termination of a pregnancy"
Stranger: Ok
Stranger: Whats your point?
You: My point is pregnancy is all 3 trimesters
Stranger: Ok
You: So, you think it's wrong to kill a 6-month fetus?
Stranger: Well at that point its illegal
You: What country are you in?
Stranger: Why does it matter?
You: Because laws vary by nation.
You: It's legal here.
Stranger: Ok
You: Let's ignore what the laws say.
You: From a purely moral perspective, what do you think?
Stranger: Its up to them
Stranger: Whatever they do is their choice
You: Is it up to them to kill an 8-month fetus?
Stranger: Well they can't not legally anyways
Stranger: And plus, its not always black and white
You: They can here.
Stranger: And where is here?
You: USA
Stranger: Do you have a source?
You: Yes, Doe v. Bolton
Stranger: Ok
You: Anyway, should it be allowed?
You: I'm asking for your view, not the law's.
Stranger: In certain circumstances why not
You: Okay, what about killing a 7-month premature baby?
Stranger: Your just trying to bring me around to your side arne't you?
You: Not yet.
You: First I need to understand you.
You: Where do you draw the line?
Stranger: Its not as black and white as you are making it out to be.
You: What do you mean?
You: Either the fetus has the right to live or she doesn't.
Stranger: You're comparing abortion to infanticide. The reason why abortion is legal is because the fetus does not technically meet the standards that is said to be "living", or else it would be illegal. Also there are some cases where the person in pregnancy have a risk of death when giving birth. Also many reasons why people get abortions is because they have been raped and they can not live with the fact of having their lives ruined because of someone else.
Stranger: If people have a justified reason to have an abortion then they should be allowed to do so.
You: What are the scientific characteristics of life?
Stranger: Consciousness
You: Scientific?
You: Funny, because that's not what my biology textbook says.
Stranger: Then what is it?
You: There are 7, actually
Stranger: Alright
You: Lemme find the page.
You: Heredity
You: Homeostasis
You: Reproduction
You: Cellular organisation
You: or organization, depending on whether you use UK or US English
You: Metabolism
You: Growth and Development
You: Response
Stranger: Well can they do all that?
You: Yes.
Stranger: So a fetus can reproduce?
Stranger: as well as pass down its genetic traits?
You: Yes.
You: Have you heard of twinning?
Stranger: How?
Stranger: You mean when an egg splits in two?
You: When an embryo splits in two.
Stranger: Ok, but can the fetus do that
You: No.
You: Well, in a decade or so yes.
Stranger: But is then considered a fetus?
You: No, but it's the same organism.
Stranger: But its no longer a fetus
You: Fetus is just a stage of development.
You: Same as embryo and adolescent.
You: Let me put it this way.
You: Is a tulip alive?
Stranger: You just did that with the tree.
You: And you didn't answer.
You: Yes or no?
Stranger: Well you didn't answer my question
You: Because you didn't answer mine.
You: I asked mine first.
You: Is a tulip alive?
You: Yes or no
Stranger: Its obvious that your just going to use my answer to help prove your point.
You: As are you.
Stranger: I told you where I stand in this issue though
You: I know the answer already.
Stranger: No really?
You: Unless you can find any reputable scientific document that says that plants are not alive.
Stranger: Ok, you like hypotheticals
You: This isn't a hypothetical.
You: Plants exist.
Stranger: If a woman is in pregnancy and she discovers that she will or potentially die from giving birth what should she do?
Stranger: Really?
You: I don't have the answer to that question.
You: I'm not an obstetrician.
Stranger: No matter in what situation you lose life
Stranger: We as human eat plants and cut down trees in order to provide us with food and shelter
Stranger: Animals kill other animals for energy
You: The doctor should try to save as many lives as possible.
You: We don't kill each other for food.
Stranger: Well, not everybody
Stranger: But we kill other organisms for food.
Stranger: Are we justified in doing that?
Stranger: Were taking life.
You: Question.
You: Are these organisms human?
Stranger: No
You: Are we human?
Stranger: Yes
You: Then yes.
You: Now answer my question.
You: Your turn.
Stranger: So then your arguments with plants and tree are invalid.
You: No, they are not.
You: Answer the question.
Stranger: Yes, plants and trees live
You: Okay.
You: So, the fetus is also alive.
Stranger: But your going to compare it to fetuses
Stranger: Ya, but we still take the lives of the animals and trees
Stranger: Why is it justified to take theirs and not our own?
You: The fetus is alive, do we agree on this?
You: Yes or no.
Stranger: I asked first
You: Okay.
You: Are you aware of where morality comes from?
Stranger: Why don't you jog my memory
You: Okay, have you heard of the biological leash.
Stranger: No, but I have a feeling your going to tell me
You: The biological leash is a sort of hard-wired programming from evolution.
You: It makes us tend to avoid intraspecies aggression.
You: It's basically the "conscience".
You: It originated as a survival mechanism, and developed into morality.
You: Most species have something similar.
Stranger: Well what is morality, its different to everyone.
Stranger: Some people believe in gun control, others don't
You: People have different opinions on complicated societal issues like that.
Stranger: So then why are you trying to change mine?
You: But on more primitive things, we're hard-wired the same.
You: Gun control and abortion are different things on a primitive level.
You: We never got programmed to have a view on guns because we only got guns recently.
You: Last hour in evolutionary times.
You: time*
Stranger: Well we only got abortion recently
You: Depends on your definition of "abortion" and "recently".
Stranger: Well induced abortion
You: Well, herbal abortions are very, very old.
You: But we've had homicide in general for as long as there have been "hom"s to "icide"
Stranger: Alright
Stranger: But can I ask you
You: And we've been programmed to oppose it.
You: Ask away.
Stranger: Why does it matter to you that you change my opinion?
You: A few reasons.
You: Firstly, it's a very important issue.
You: To me, it's the blood of innocents.
You: I see it as a holocaust that's going on.
Stranger: Well, the way I see it
You: I recognize how you see it. You asked why it mattered to me.
Stranger: But I just don't want to have to deal with this
Stranger: Cause you're obviously trying to prove to me you are right, I respect your opinion
Stranger: But I don
You: Secondly, this lets take action in the world while being too young to vote.
Stranger: Don't believe in it
Stranger: Not everything can be proven with science, and morality changes
You: Thirdly, I find this kind of conversation more stimulating than "horny 17m uk u got cam?"
You: Fourthly, I'm bored.
Stranger: Well if I may suggest
Stranger: screw with their heads.
You: True, not anything can be proven with science.
Stranger: you'll get more enjoyment from it
You: But science can tell us that the fetus is a living human being?
You: Huh?
Stranger: Maybe.
You: Oh, with their heads.
Stranger: But it can also prove it isn't
You: How?
You: How can a dead thing grow and develop?
Stranger: The world is a strange place
Stranger: We can only observe it
You: Why does a nonliving fetus need a continuous supply of nutrients and oxygen?
Stranger: And our perceptions can mislead us
Stranger: Afterall we are only human
You: Yes, and so is the fetus.
Stranger: And also the fetus is used in stem cell research to help other human beings
You: You're thinking of embryos.
Stranger: Yes, but is it not as important?
You: Is what not as important?
Stranger: embryos as important as fetuses?
You: Yes, they are.
You: But abortion is statistically a greater problem.
Stranger: Well we live in an unjust and unfair world
You: And I try to make it fairer.
Stranger: Only when we live in a utopia will we ever see the idea of abortion go away as it wont be needed
You: Yes, we will.
Stranger: But is it fair for a rape victim to carry her rapers baby?
You: No, it is not. Forcible impregnation should be a separate crime.
You: Is it fair to punish someone for something that happened before they even existed?
Stranger: Nope, but I guess you have to be a person in that situation in order to really understand it
You: Okay, what about someone like Juda Myers?
Stranger: Whos she?
You: She was conceived when 8 men gangraped her mom.
Stranger: ah
Stranger: Well it was her choice
You: Hers, or her mother's?
You: Is she somehow subhuman because of an act of her father and 7 of his associates?
You: It's not her fault that her mother was raped, and she doesn't deserve the death penalty for it.
You: But the rapist should get extra punishments for both forcing her to become a mother and abandoning his daughter.
You: But you think abortion is acceptable in more cases than just rape, don't you?
You: If the fetus has a right to live, it doesn't matter who her father is.
You: If the fetus does not have a right to live, it doesn't matter what (if any) reason there is for the abortion.
You: If you convince me that the fetus does not have a right to live, I'd be okay with abortion for whatever stupid reason you could come up with, from using the fetus's skin for leather to just doing it for shits and giggles.
You: If the tree is alive, the fetus certainly is.
You: And seeing how the fetus has a human genome and human parents, I don't see how the fetus could belong to any species other than H. sapiens sapiens.
You: Biology tells us that the fetus is a living human being.
You: If you want to argue that "awareness", however you may define it, justifies discrimination against some people and not others, make my day.
You: But don't make claims that an 8th grader could rebut.
You: ...
You: Are you there?

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