Tuesday, April 27, 2010

You won't change my mind.

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: I for it
You: You are?
You: Why?
Stranger: cuz there are already so many people on this world. If you don't want the child you created then thats fine
You: How about infanticide?
Stranger: Honestly, I don't know what that is.
You: The killing of an infant.
Stranger: That has already been born?
You: yes
You: That's what "infant" means.
Stranger: That's a little more harsh, but still, I'm not against it.
You: What about killing a toddler?
Stranger: I would be against that. The reasons I have my opinions is because I'm a animal lover. Thousands of animals are killed everyday because of overpopulation. We're overpopulated too so why is killing an unborn child such a crime?
You: Why is killing a toddler a crime?
You: After all, we're overpopulated.
You: Why, can't I just go outside with an Uzi and reduce the population?
Stranger: I didn't really mean crime. More like people see it as murdered, and it is in a way, but being killed at such a young age doesn't have the same effect of killing a toddler. The kid has already live the first few years of his life.
You: And the newborn has already lived the first few months.
You: And the fetus has already lived the first few weeks.
Stranger: I'm going to put this in terms that are easier for me to understand. I breed fish and I cull (kill) any fry that I feel don't meet the starndards I'm looking for. Culls that are killed are either ill or deformed or have something that will negatively throughout their life. Culls that may have developed a weird fin are just adopted out for free. The point is, I believe healthy babies should deserve to life, but if they aren't then killing them would be best. This way we wouldn't have as many babies and the ones we do have would be healthy.
You: So, if a toddler needs glasses, can she be killed?
Stranger: No
You: Why not?
Stranger: Because people that need glasses can lead a normal life.
You: What if she's missing a leg/
Stranger: If she was born like that then yes
You: A legless toddler can be killed?
Stranger: Yep
You: What about a legless 6-year-old?
Stranger: No
You: Why not?
Stranger: Anything above 1 year is a no
You: Toddler is 2-4
Stranger: May I ask why you asking me these questions?
You: Because you apparently support killing innocent newborns
You: For birth defects that they didn't choose and that could be aided with prosthetics.
Stranger: And I'm guessing you're against it.
You: As any decent person should be.
Stranger: People die everyday. They didn't choose to die. Puppies and kittens die everyday. They didn't choose to die either.
You: True.
You: People die in earthquakes, for example.
You: Does that make it okay to kill the same people with genocide?
Stranger: We're going to die some way or another.
You: Is it okay to murder a 12-year-old girl?
Stranger: What I'm trying to get at is the overpopulation is killing the earth. The planet that we live on. Without it none of us would be alive.
You: Okay, then we stop making babies.
You: That doesn't make it okay to kill each other.
Stranger: We aren't killing each other. We're killing things that haven't even been born yet
You: You also said it's okay to kill anyone up to a year AFTER birth
You: and the unborn child is still one of us.
Stranger: So if a 13 year old gets raped, do you expect her to give birth to and raise the baby?
You: No, she can give the baby to an infertile couple.
You: You're the one wanting to punish her baby for something that's not his/her fault.
You: I mean rape itself doesn't get the death penalty.
Stranger: How am I punishing it? It's not born. It doesn't know what's going on. It's killed humanely.
You: You give the child the death penalty.
You: The child is killed.
You: That's a punishment.
Stranger: It's not like I killed that baby myself.
You: You support it, though.
Stranger: Yes I do.
You: You think it's okay to punish someone for something they never did.
You: The baby is completely innocent.
You: I know some people who were conceived in rape.
You: They're just as human as we are.
Stranger: I know someone who blew a kitten up with a bomb. That kitten didn't do anything to deserve to die, but it got brutally murder. The babies are humanely killed, and no they don't do anything that would make them deserve to die. We don't need more people on this earth though.
You: The babies are torn limb from limb.
Stranger: They don't have to be.
You: True, they can be chemically burned.
You: Or they can have their brains sucked out and their skulls crushed.
You: Or they can be poisoned.
You: Or starved.
You: It's still not their fault.
Stranger: Why not just remove the baby and give an overdose of anesthesia.
You: I mean, Juda Myers was conceived when 8 men gang raped her mother. She's a nice woman and 100% innocent.
You: Because that still kills.
Stranger: It kills humanly though
You: Also, that would be harder for the mother.
You: Can I murder an 11-year-old girl if I do it with a painless bullet between the eyes?
Stranger: suuuure
You: Do you really think that?
Stranger: no
You: Why not?
Stranger: An 11 year old and an unborn baby are different.
You: How?
You: And if it's done "humanely", does it matter?
Stranger: The baby isn't born and the girl is.
You: So vaginas are magical?
Stranger: Yes. It's like when you open a cerel box and find the prize
Stranger: There's things in life we are against. We can try to stop them but it may not even matter.
You: It's the same person no matter where he/she is.
You: I mean, a 6-month premature baby is born but a 9-month postterm fetus isn't.
Stranger: Nope
You: What?
You: Are you saying a premie isn't born?
You: Or that a postterm fetus is?
You: Or maybe that who you are changes based on your location?
Stranger: I don't know what you're trying to do. You won't change my mind.
You: Are you saying we get rights at birth, or a year after birth?
Stranger: When you move out of your parents house is when you get rights. Otherwise you are owned.
You: So, is it okay for a dad to rape his daughter?
Stranger: I never said that.
You: He owns her, doesn't he?
You: She has no right to not be raped because she still lives in his house.
You: Stranger: When you move out of your parents house is when you get rights. Otherwise you are owned.
Stranger: If you get raped by your dad that's just wrong.
You: How is that wrong if you only get rights when you move out?
Stranger: Your rights and my rights, they're different.
You: Stranger: When you move out of your parents house is when you get rights. Otherwise you are owned.
Stranger: Stranger: Or maybe that who you are changes based on your location?
You: That's what you seem to believe/
Stranger: ok w-e
You: How old do you need to be for it to be wrong to murder you
Stranger: 77
You: Now you're just fucking with me.
You have disconnected.
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it's a logical fallacy to believe murdering someone would cause harm to the murdered one

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: Perfectly acceptable
You: What about late-term abortion?
Stranger: Acceptable as well
You: Even at 9 months?
Stranger: That's on the limits, most likely I would not advice aborting at 9 months.
You: Is it not "acceptable as well"?
Stranger: Depends how developed the soon-to-be-child is
You: Already a child.
You: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/child
You: Not much development happens in the later months; then it's mostly just growth.
Stranger: This is actually rather thought provoking. It's hard to relate, for I haven't had a child yet, and it's hard to feel for something you are not familiar with.
Stranger: But still, if I was to have a child, I would not encourage abortion at the later stages
You: Thought-provoking.
Stranger: In the early stages though, I don't see any reason why not.
You: It's the same person no matter how old he/she is.
Stranger: But can a fetus be considered as a fully developed person?
You: Nobody can really be considered "fully developed", at least not until puberty.
You: Development continues until death.
Stranger: Yes, well, maybe it was a poor choice of words. By fully developed I meant the fetus being able to think/feel etc. on it's own.
Stranger: Is there data on the case?
You: What do you mean by "think"?
You: Because higher cognitive thought and self-awareness, the kind of thought that distinguishes us from other animals, isn't present in newborns.
You: Around 18 months after birth, IIRC.
Stranger: Then what distinguishes a fetus from a child?
You: Nothing, really.
You: There's nothing magical about the birth canal.
You: Human development is a continuum.
Stranger: But in early stages, the fetus doesn't have practically any sort of developed brain functions/muscle control etc.
You: What do you mean by "muscle control"?
You: Do you mean above reflex actions/
You: Because to go past reflex actions you really need cognitive thought.
You: Which brings us back to the 18 months thing.
Stranger: Yes, you are of course correct. But that's the very reason why I would accept abortion at the earlier stages. Can a fetus really be considered a person when it can hardly be differentiated from other mammals?
You: The exact same could be said of a newborn.
You: Now, there are those who say that infanticide is okay up to a year after birth.
You: I hope you aren't one of them.
Stranger: No, can't say that I am. As I mentioned before, it's hard to feel for anything that you are not familiar with. That's why it's easier to accept abortion of an unborn child than of one that has been born. You get in contact with it, or him if you please, which leads to stronger emotions being formed.
Stranger: And let me correct myself
Stranger: Of course I didn't mean abortion of a born child, that would be absurd.
You: You can see an unborn child through ultrasound or fetoscopy.
Stranger: I meant infanticide as you said it.
Stranger: Yes, but that's all you get. Images on a screen.
You: Seems like you aren't thinking rationally.
You: It's the same baby.
Stranger: Of course it's better than nothing at all, but frankly, the fetus/child you are looking at through ultrasound doesn't really resemble anything humane (at the very early stages)
You: What about premies?
You: 6 weeks: http://www.ehd.org/movies.php?mov_id=35
You: They look just like humans are supoposed to at that age.
Stranger: As said before, it's hard to relate. Nevertheless, I'd accept it. Since the child doesn't have any sort of higher cognitive functions, can it really feel it's surroundings and remember anything? Does it bring harm to it if it's life is ended with no trace of pain?
You: I could easily end anyone's life with no trace of pain.
You: It's called a bullet between the eyes.
You: As for higher cognitive functions, newborns are pretty stupid compared to the animal kingdom.
Stranger: Yes, precisely. If you do the "bullet between the eyes", does it bring one any harm. It can't, for you can't remember/feel anything whatsoever after dying.
You: Yes, it can cause harm, because that person is dead.
You: Forever.
You: Anything they would've done they can no longer do.
Stranger: That causes harm to the persons relatives and friends. Not to the person itself, since the person never has a clue what has happened to him. He will never know he even existed, so it's exactly like he has never done it.
You: Are you saying it causes no harm to murder someone?
You: The decades lost to that person mean nothing/
You: ?
Stranger: No, that I am not saying. I am saying that "murdering someone", as frankly as you put it (albeit you are right), doesn't cause any harm to the one murdered. Don't start to speculate now, I would never, never, murder anyone. But yes, decades lost to that person will mean nothing, since he will never know that he has lost those decades.
You: So, murdering someone with no family is perfectly okay?
Stranger: Thinking logically, yes, it would be perfectly okay. There is this matter called conscience though, which prevents most people, including me from doing those things.
Stranger: I guess it's about preserving ones own species.
You: Good luck getting that approved by anyone.
Stranger: I don't want it to get approved by anyone
You: Would you support a law murdering homeless people?
Stranger: Naturally not, don't be absurd.
You: Why not?
You: By your logic, it'd be fine.
Stranger: No, you completely missed my point it seems. I am a human so naturally I want to preserve my own species which stops me from killing other human beings, also called conscience. I would NEVER murded anyone, but it's a logical fallacy to believe murdering someone would cause harm to the murdered one.
You: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/harm
You: I'd call a bullet to the head "physical injury".
Stranger: Now we are just nitpicking, but I'll go with it.
Stranger: How do you define physical injury?
You: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/injury
You: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/physical
Stranger: Now we're going in circles, the article about injuries mentions harm in many cases, which is where we started at. There is this one input with: "wrong or injustice done or suffered.", though.
Stranger: Or actually, could you by any means select the most appropriate one out of those inputs on that webpage?
Stranger: You can naturally think of one yourself as well.
You: What do you mean?
Stranger: Numerous inputs on the webpage define injury as some sort of harm done or suffered by a person. Harm is a rather abstract concept, could you please define it somehow more definitively?
You: Harm is damage.
Stranger: So physical injury would mean physical damage, correct?
You: Correct.
You: Someone with a massive bullet wound is damaged.
Stranger: Now, in order to define whether physical damage is done to a person, we'd have to ask from the person who has been dealt that damage whether he feels like he has been dealt damage to, since damage is a very subjective concept, correct? (My apologies if there were any grammatical errors there, English is not my native language).
Stranger: Please ask to simplify something if I made some mistakes
Stranger: we'd have to ask the personÄ
Stranger: *
You: No, that's not true.
You: If I smash a chair with a hammer, it's damaged.
You: I can't ask the chair.
Stranger: But you can ask the owner of the chair.
Stranger: If the owner of the chair doesn't think it's damaged, is it really damaged?
You: Yes, it is.
You: I could go into the wilderness and poison a tree.
You: The tree is owned by no one and feels nothing, yet is still harmed.
You: I could nuke Pluto.
You: I could take a chainsaw to a stray cat.
Stranger: If you nuked Pluto, I could still say: "I don't think Pluto is damaged, it's actually improved now!", it means I do not find that it's damaged, ergo damage is a subjective concept.
You: No, you would just be wrong.
Stranger: No, the majority of the people would think I'm wrong. I, however wouldn't. Meaning it's subjective once again.
Stranger: Nothing in this whole world can be completely objective
Stranger: It just isn't possible
Stranger: Just for the record, I want to thank you in advance, for this is one of the most intriguing conversations I've had in ages.
Stranger: And I do want to say I understand your point. No doubt about it.
You: Much better than "hi 17/m/uk wanna see my throbbing cock?"
Stranger: Precisely
You: One of the reasons I do this.
Stranger: Out of pure curiosity, how old are you?
Stranger: You do not have to answer if you don't feel like it, of course.
You: Okay neat.
You: I'm [redacted]
Stranger: Interesting
You: depends on when u start counting
Stranger: I would have taken you for someone older.
You: I get that a lot.
Stranger: Most likely so
Stranger: Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you. I need to leave now, perhaps we can have another argument at some later point (highly unlikely, albeit desirable).
You: You got email?
You: Or AIM?
Stranger: My email is [censored]
Stranger: Looking forward to hearing from you again, good bye.
You: okay
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
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Thursday, April 22, 2010

Stranger: yes

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: hey, 13/male> F/M?
Stranger: umm its the chicks choice
Stranger: dpends there situation
You: What about the child?
Stranger: what u mean?
You: I mean that the child gets no say in the matter.
You: It's not the child's fault.
Stranger: thats true but sometimes its for the best, not in all sits
You: How can it be for the best to kill an innocent person?
Stranger: because it could prevent them form years of pain!
You: Give me an example/
Stranger: if the family live in africa and cant afford to raise the child and cant have it adopted
You: Would you kill an African toddler for the same reason?
Stranger: yes
Stranger: would you?
You: Of course not!
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
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Sunday, April 18, 2010

i dont really see this conversation going anywhere

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: i am pro-choice
Stranger: how about you?
You: Pro-choice and pro-life.
Stranger: yes, those are generally the two sides
Stranger: why do you ask?
You: Pro-life because I recognize that the unborn offspring are human beings.
Stranger: unborn.
You: Yeah, so?
You: Pro-choice because abortion takes away the child's choice and all choices he would've made in the rest of his life.
Stranger: i dont really see this conversation going anywhere because i doubt anything i say will change your mind
Stranger: but im pro choice because i think about the woman carrying the baby
You: So do I.
Stranger: and if she would be able to raise a child in a good and healthy way
You: And I support single-payer health care
You: paid maternity leave
You: stricter child support laws
You: living wage
Stranger: oh yeah, paid mternity leave will make up for a lifechanging event like being pregnant and giving birth.
Stranger: especially if they dont have a job
You: I'm not saying that'll fix it.
You: Unemployment benefits
You: I'm saying it's a start.
Stranger: why did you ask?
You: Violence isn't the answer.
Stranger: why would you start a conversation about such a heavy topic with a stranger
You: Because I'm bored.
Stranger: you are a strange person
Stranger: with a very dark mind
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
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Thursday, April 15, 2010


You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
Stranger: hey
You: howdy
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: good question, I guess
Stranger: why do you ask?
You: Because by asking, anyone who's here for sex leaves immediately.
Stranger: hehe!
Stranger: mh. where are you from? :)
You: USA
Stranger: uh. ok
You: I'm against abortion, BTW.
Stranger: and why?
You: homicide is wrong no matter how old the victim is
Stranger: yes, thats right. but... if the child has no chance for a good life and will suffer due to underfeeding or something like that... perhaps an abortion is the better way. a way to protect the baby...
You: Protect the baby by killing her? Would you EVER consider shooting a toddler just because he's in a poor family?
Stranger: no, I would not. but that's not what I'am talking about
You: It's the same child, just younger.
Stranger: and a life in pain is better than no life?
You: You have no way of knowing how her life will turn out.
You: Would you kill a newborn who MAY grow up hungry?
Stranger: what a question... of course not!
You: Well, what's the difference?
Stranger: but... argh... my english...
Stranger: I don't know the words for a difficult subject like this one =/
You: okay
You: well, she's the same baby; if she can't be killed after birth, she can't be killed after birth.
You: If she's poor, we need to help her, not murder her.
Stranger: do YOU help her?
Stranger: ... if yes - how?
You: Yes.
You: My taxed pay for numerous social programs
You: taxes*
You: medicare, medicaid, unemployment.
You: if i could vote, i would vote for more programs
Stranger: mh, do you know metro ministries?
You: no
Stranger: http://www.metroministries.com/
You: ill bookmark that thanks
Stranger: I think that's a good one. I "sponsor" a boy from new york. I hope I can help him somehow :)
You: anyway, why wouldn't you kill the same baby with the same future after she;s born?
Stranger: well. I guess because I can see her. After the birth it's... it's something other... I know, it sounds weird. But I don't know how to explain
Stranger: btw, how old are you?
You: [age]
You: no matter if you can see her she's the same person
You: plus, she can be seen through ultrasound and fetoscopy
Stranger: that's a serious subject for a person in your age. why are you that interested in it?
Stranger: are you a girl, I guess?
You: I'm interested in it because for 8 and a half months I was denied my basic human rights.
You: No, I'm a dude.
Stranger: ok.
Stranger: mh, what do you mean with "for 8 and a half months I was denied my basic human rights"?
You: From when I was conceived to when I was born, I was considered subhuman.
You: Ugh, gotta go

Saturday, April 10, 2010

and I'm pro-choice no matter what you say

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
Stranger: hi
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: I'm pro-choice
Stranger: you?
You: I'm pro-choice and pro-life.
You: Abortion takes away a lifetime of choices.
Stranger: aha
Stranger: doesn't change my mind
You: The right to choose includes the right to not have death thrust upon you.
Stranger: a fetus understand doesn't even understand the concept of choosing anything. the woman gets to choose at that point
You: Okay, how about infanticide?
Stranger: that's different
You: A newborn baby doesn't even understand the concept of choosing anything either.
Stranger: they're still capable of more thought than a fetus
You: And a toddler is capable of more thought than an infant.
You: And so on.
Stranger: how many black crack babies have you adopted?
You: Mental handicap does not mean you lose your human rights.
You: How many abused children have YOU adopted?
You: You're attacking my character here, not my argument.
You: By your logic, you can't oppose spousal abuse unless you take in every abused spouse.
Stranger: I'm 22 and in school, I'm not in the position to be adopting anyone. however, as someone who WAS abused and who may be infertile, I may one day adopt a child.
Stranger: I'd be willing to helpan abused woman, though
You: If the chance was presented to me, and I was in the position of adopting, I would.
You: However, even if I myself was an abortionist, my arguments would stand on their own merits.
You: If you refuse to address my arguments and decide on personal attacks, that says something.
Stranger: not too many pro-lifers want to help those poor women who have kids they can't care for. they don't give a damn what happens once the kid is born. they're also usually the same people who oppose universal healthcare and moan about welfare queens
You: Hey, I support single-payer.
You: But that's irrelevant to the matter at hand.
You: We are discussing whether or not the prenatal offspring is a human being.
Stranger: it is a member of the species, yes. it's not really a person, though
You: Would the DNA of every unborn child suddenly change if I changed my stance on healthcare?
You: What;s the difference?
Stranger: it's not sentient and it hasn't been born
You: What do you mean by "sentient"?
Stranger: it doesn't know that it exists, it doesn't know what's going on, it's just a developing thing
You: The actual definition is the ability to perceive their environment.
You: Sapience is what you are refering to.
Stranger: I think "doesn't know what's going on" fits "perceiving the environment"
You: Anyway, how do your mental capabilities disqualify you from human rights.
You: Infants, after all, do not become sapient until months after birth, though the exact time varies and is under scientiic debate.
Stranger: it's not born yet. it's a little thing that's taking over a big portion of the woman's life
You: Some mentally handicapped adults would fall under your threshold of "person", including some Alzheimer's patients.
Stranger: and she has the right to get rid of it if she wants
You: Wait, so which is it?
You: Is it self-awareness or location?
Stranger: but they have been born, they really exist, people know them
Stranger: it's a combinattion of things
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind
You: You're confusing me here. Is it mental capacity, physical location, or the number of people who "know you" that grants human rights?
You: Is a hermit less of a person?
You: Or an Alzheimer's patient?
You: Does a trip of 9 inches change anything about the baby?
Stranger: it's a combination. an unwanted fetus doesn't know what's going on, it's not yet born, and it's unwanted
You: So, can an unwanted newborn be killed?
Stranger: no, because that's illegal and it has been born, and it's more developed
You: More developed than a 9-month fetus?
Stranger: I wouldn't want a 9 month fetus aborted either unless there was something terribly wrong with it
You: Okay, what about a 7-month baby that was born premature?
Stranger: that's different. it can survive outside the womb without assistance. a 1st trimester fetus can't
Stranger: with assistance*
You: What is your definition of "without assistance"?
You: oh
You: Well, that's really dependent upon current and local medical technology.
You: That doesn't seem like a good standard to measure rights.
Stranger: it's a thing. it doesn't get rights yet
You: Is the premature baby a "thing"?
Stranger: it can live, it's born, and it's wanted
You: Is an unwanted premature baby a "thing"?
You: It makes no sense to grant someone rights based on another's feelings towards him or her
You: As for "can live", are you saying babies that are not yet born are dead?
Stranger: if it's born and it can live, then people still have responsibilities towards it (though not the woman, if she signs it over)
Stranger: they're not dead, but they're more a part of the woman than they are a separate entity
You: Okay, what about an as of yet unborn 5 month baby?
Stranger: dude, you're not gonna change my mind
You: Do you know what the purpose of the placenta is?
Stranger: I'm about to graduate with a degree in biology, of course I know
You: Okay.
You: Do you know why the two circulatory systems have to use diffusion?
You: Why can't they just link directly?
You: That said, why does the embryo release immunosurpressant hormones at implantation?
Stranger: or else it'll be treated as a foreign body and expelled
You: The embryo or fetus is a foreign organism and would be recognized as such by the mother's immune system.
You: Human beings reproduce sexually, and as such our offspring have DNA that differs from ours.
You: In viviparous animals such as most mammals, the first part of life is spent inside the mother's body.
Stranger: it's still very much a part of the mother's body, though. it takes everything from her, and she has every right to get rid of something that's taking so much from her
You: Oviparous animals lay eggs, but it's the same idea.
You: Okay, you are correct there.
Stranger: no shit. bio degree, remember?
You: The embryo takes nutrients from the mother's bloodstream.
You: However, that does not make him PART OF his mother
You: He is merely dependent upon her
You: or is until the point of viability
You: If you have a bio degree, you should know sexual reproduction produces a new organism with the fusion of male and female gametes.
You: If the fetus was part of the mother, that would mean we reproduce asexually.
You: The fetus is half mother and half father.
Stranger: yeah, and she doesn't have to give it anything if she doesn't want to
You: Okay, so your argument is not that the fetus is not a person, but that the mother has rights that supercede that of the child.
You: Is that correct?
Stranger: yes, while it's at that stage
Stranger: it's like a parasite to her if she doesn't want it
You: Okay, so would that mean that you are against late-term abortions (after the point of viability)?
Stranger: if the fetus is healthy, then yes. i there is something horifically wrong with it, then I believe the woman should be ableto choose to abort it
You: Would you allow a nonhealthy newborn to be killed?
You: Is perfect health now needed for the right to live?
Stranger: honestly? if there was absolutely no hope for it, euthanasia may be best. however, once it is born, your options are keep it if it's wanted or surrender your parental rights if it's unwanted. totally different situation
You: Okay, would you allow them to shoot their born baby if no adoptive parents can be found?
Stranger: there are orphanages and foster parents
You: They're on a ship in the middle of the ocean.
You: They need to wait until they dock to find foster care.
Stranger: dude, when would that even happen? they have to care for it until they dock
Stranger: at which point they can surrender their rights
You: Okay, how far away can the dock get?
You: Is there a distance at which they can shoot the kid rather than wait 5 weeks?
You: Or 10?
You: or 22?
Stranger: you're talking about something that isn't going to happen. they're obligated to keep it alive until they surrender their rights
You: Couldn't they just surrender their rights on the boat and shoot him?
Stranger: there's no lawyer present
You: There will be when they reach shore with a corpse.
Stranger: you're talking about a ridiculous situation, just give up on it
You: But you agree that they must wait until docking?
Stranger: there will be a corpse if it's a sickly child, no doctor or supplies on board, etc
You: At which point an autopsy will reveal the cause of death.
Stranger: you have to do your best to keep a born baby alive until you can surrender your rights
You: It's pretty easy to tell starvation from massive head trauma.
Stranger: I'm not advocating that they kill it
Stranger: what are you even talking about? can't you read?
You: Well, by your logic, because the child is dependent upon his parents until docking, he would have no rights.
Stranger: if it's born, it has rights! jesus christ.....
You: Okay, so it is birth.
You: I'm glad we could clear that up.
You: So, late-term abortion of a healthy fetus is fine with you, then?
You: Even if the fetus could survive on his own?
Stranger: born and viable with assistance, and defects that aren't conducive to life
You: Okay, how much assistence has to be needed before abortion is okay?
Stranger: late term abortion of a healthy fetus is not okay because it can possibly survive with assistance and then be placed for adoption
You: Because medical technology is pushing viability further and further back.
Stranger: not THAT far back
You: Eventually artificial womb technology could push it all the way.
Stranger: and even if it was pushed that far back, it might live but might not turn out right
You: By your logic, however, the parents would need to "care for" the baby until "docking".
Stranger: I doubt it
Stranger: your analogy is ridiculous
You: Until the point at which they can give up their parental rights.
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind. morons like you make me even more pro-choice
You: Well, what's the difference?
You: I'm just trying to figure out what your line is; it seems to be jumping all over the place. Self-awareness, wantedness, viability, birth, back to viability,
Stranger: it's all involved
Stranger: my stance doesn't just depend on one thing
You: Well, you've established self-awareness is irrelevant by opposing late-term abortion and infanticide.
You: You've established wantedness is irrelevant by the docking admission.
You: Birth, again, premies
You: So we're left with viability.
Stranger: you're making me make decisions based on ridiculous situations
You: Which is still being pushed back.
Stranger: not that far, you fucking dumbass
You: Do you think we will never be able to simulate a mechanical uterus?
Stranger: not with any great success, no. either way, it's not an option right now
You: 300 years ago incubators weren't an option.
You: Were babies back then less human than they are now?
Stranger: we shouldn't change laws now just because of what could happen in the future
Stranger: that's irrelevent
You: Okay, so back then would you have supported late-term abortion?
Stranger: no, because they had no way of knowing if it was healthy
Stranger: no sonograms to find anencephaly, for example
You: Even a healthy midterm baby back then could not have survived outside the uterus.
You: By your logic, the same age fetus is more of a person now that we have better medical technology.
Stranger: because there was no option. I wouldn't want them doing abortions back then, either, simply because of the risk to the woman
You: Okay, if the abortions were safe, would you support aborting a fetus of an age that is viable now, but wasn't then?
You: Assuming perfect health.
Stranger: it doesn't matter, because that's not what the situation was back then. my stance is based on today's situation
You: Even today's situation is changing.
Stranger: not as much as it is in your dream land
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind
You: Even in the past half century, viability has gone back at least a weel.
You: week*
Stranger: I'm pro-choice and always will be
You: Is your argument that the fetus is a nonperson, or that the fetus is a person but can be removed?
You: Because I can't seem to tell.
You: What would be wrong with carrying to viability "at which point they can surrender their rights"?
Stranger: in today's day, I support abortions in any situation if the fetus is not viable, I support late term abortions if the fetus has serious problems, and if it were legal I would support euthanasia if horrible, unfixable problems were present at birth.
You: I can tell that, but what's your logic?
Stranger: it's not 300 years ago, I'm not on a boat, and I'm not in the future, so none of that matters
You: Yes, it does, because a 22-week fetus in 2010 and a 22-week fetus in 1386 are the same.
You: By your logic, it's wrong to kill the former.
Stranger: no it doesn't because it's not 1386, dumbass
You: But not the latter.
Stranger: I don't care! it's 2010!
You: Do you or do you not hold that viability is significant?
Stranger: your arguments are incredibly dumb
You: Answer the question. Is viability important?
Stranger: for me in 2010, yes
You: Okay, does that apply no matter when the point of viability is?
You: If in the next half-hour, a scientist came on the news and announced the mass-production of artificial wombs, would embryos get the right to life?
You: Not to mention that COUNTRIES with different standards of medical care have different points of viability.
Stranger: if a fetus in 2010 could suddenly survive in an artificial womb at 5 weeks gestation (WHICH IS NOT HAPPENING, ASSHAT), it would be trickier, but I would likely still be pr-choice because there surely would not be enough fake wombs to go around and the cost would be astronomical
You: Okay, what about a fetus at 8 months that needs an oxygenated incubator?
You: You DID say "with assistence"
Stranger: but I live in the US, so that's the only country that matters to me on this issue
You: The US is a member state of the UN.
You: As such, we could vote on allowing fetuses to be aborted in Africa that could survive here.
Stranger: a fetus born at 8 months and living in an incubator should be kept alive. the woman chooses to keep it or surrender her rights
Stranger: I don't care about the fucking UN
You: What if the baby is not yet born but could be placed in an incubator?
Stranger: then the woman needs to keep it in her until it's born because taking it out at that point and putting it in an incubator is costly and retarded
You: Okay, would you allow abortion at that point on a healthy baby?
Stranger: I already told you no
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind
Stranger: give up
Stranger: you're an idiot
You: At this, point, I'm just trying to understand you.
Stranger: no, you're not
You: You think that at 8 months, she should wait another month and surrender her rights, correct?
Stranger: I've already explained my stance, but you just keep coming up with ridiculous what-ifs
Stranger: yes
Stranger: but at, say, 8 weeks, abortion is an option and she can choose it
You: Okay.
You: Well, viability is now around 22 weeks.
You: Other times and locations aside, that's about where it's at here and now.
You: Would you want a 23 week fetus to be put in an incubator, or to be carried to term, assuming perfect health?
Stranger: carried to term
You: 22 weeks, again with perfect health?
You: The earliest premie was 21 weeks 5 days, BTW.
Stranger: carried to term.
You: Random question: do you like burritos?
Stranger: yes
You: I could never really get into beans of any sort.
Stranger: I get them without beans
You: They make those?
You: How?
Stranger: if you ask them to
You: wouldnt that be an empty tortilla?
Stranger: meat, rice, sauce
Stranger: I eat chicken or beef burritos
You: Ah, sort of like a taco cigar. ^_^
Stranger: mmhmm
You: What kind of sauce?
Stranger: ehh, just like, salsa maybe
Stranger: you're weird
You: Cheddar cheese, I assume?
Stranger: cheese too
You: I might have to try that.
You: What kind of cheese?
Stranger: at school I like to get it with chicken or beef, rice, cooked bell peppers, and cheddar cheese. dip it in salsa and sour cream
You: i never knew they made beanless burritos
You: you learn something every day.
You: Anyways, if the fetuses aren't being put into incubators anyway and are being carried to term, why does it matter how expensive or available incubators/fake uteruses are, or at which point viability occurs at that time or place?
Stranger: you can shove whatever you want into a tortilla and cal it whatever you want, it's all good
You: Okay, LOL
You: Oh, god, I got the worst mental image
Stranger: fetus burrito?
You: No, penis burrito
Stranger: yummy. I know what the sauce would be in that case
You: Strangers will be trying to sell you those on Omegle and Chatroulette once someone figures that out lol
Stranger: indeed
You: Anyways, if the fetuses aren't being put into incubators anyway and are being carried to term, why does it matter how expensive or available incubators/fake uteruses are, or at which point viability occurs at that time or place?
You: What's the practical difference?
Stranger: don't know, don't care, I'm tired of this, and I'm pro-choice no matter what you say*
You: Wow, you sure are open-minded.
You: If I could make sense of your arguments, I could become pro-choice. I'd like that.
You: Being pro-life is such a load on my conscience :(
Stranger: you could just have no opinion, never vote, and live in blissful ignorance of it all
You: LOL, I wish I could.
You: I've gotta admit, you are one of the more complex pro-abortion people I've met here.
You: Most people here drool out of both mouths.
You: *sides of their mouths
Stranger: not pro-abortion. pro-choice. I don't like the idea of abortion and would likely have trouble choosing it for myself, but I'd never deny the right to choose to anyone else
You: Okay.
You: Does pro-gun mean you want everyone to have a gun, or you just want them to have the choice?
You: What about pro-gambling?
Stranger: I don't like guns lol
You: True, neither do I.
You: However, because I believe in gun-choice, American political lingo dictates I be called pro-gun.
You: It's really irrelevant either way; we can just say "for legal abortion" or "against legal abortion"
Stranger: if people want to have a gun or want to gamble, they can legally do those things. I can only hope they won't do anything stupid
You: Yeah, like you can trust humans to not be stupid.
You: LOL
You: I've learned my lesson from the Republican Party.
You: No offense if you're a GOP member
Stranger: hell fucking no, I'd rather die than vote republican. my bf would also leave me lol
You: LOL, smart boyfriend.
You: Yeah, same.
You: I don't really like Democrats either; their beliefs aren't leftist enough and they rarely have the guts to stand up for even those.
You: Dems in power cave WAAAAY too much.
Stranger: I vote democrat because generally only rep or dem actually has a chance of winning an election and I'd rather have a dem in power than a republican
You: Third parties have no chance of winning only if everyone's too scaredto vote for them is my motto.
Stranger: true, but even if I'm not scared, I know just about everyone else is, so there still isn't much of a point
You: I'm wondering, though, why you "don't like the idea of abortion and would likely have trouble choosing it"?
You: Ah, mob mentality.
You: If just about everyone else jumped of a bridge, would you et cetera
Stranger: well, it's not a pleasant thing. I'd probably be all emotional and be like "but my baaaaaaabyyyyyyyy" lol
You: better than "but my babbbbbbbbbbbbby"
You: ill never understand what people mean by that sort of thing
Stranger: babby? goon?
You: you cant draw out most consonanttttttttttts
Stranger: oh lol
Stranger: thought you were referring to something else lol
You: that only works on vowels and some consonents
You: no lol
You: how is babby formed?
You: they need to do way instain mother
Stranger: how woman get pragnet
Stranger: ?
You: im pretty sure it's how girl get pragnent
Stranger: no, woman
Stranger: fairly certain of that
You: googling it now
Stranger: haven't seen it in a while
You: http://encyclopediadramatica.com/How_is_babby_formed%3F
You: nope its girl
Stranger: ahhh, musta been confusing it with woman in AR killing her three chirlden
You: oh lol
You: yeah
Stranger: or however it goes lol
You: they need to do way instain mother
Stranger: are you a goon? /b/tard? other? lol
You: who kill their babby because these babby can't frigth back
Stranger: mmhmm
You: They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?
it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids . they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his chrilden ; i am truley sorry for your lots
Stranger: lol
You: some people on the tubes need an antilobotomy
Stranger: mmhmm
Stranger: why won't you answer my question? lol
You: Which one?
Stranger: are you a goon? /b/tard? other?
You: Oh, no, too many randoms posting pictures of their junk.
You: If I wanted to see a penis I'd look in my pants >_<
Stranger: I'm a goon (well, goonette). very rarely do we get pics of junk lol (and if we do, we NWS/NMS it lol)
You: What's a goon? That term is unfamiliar to me.
Stranger: except for keyboard goop....that was quite the banme thread lol
Stranger: somethingawful forums member
You: oh
You: What's NWS/NMS?
Stranger: not work safe/not mind safe
You: oh
You: ive always seen NSFW
Stranger: great place, costs tenbux to join, helps keep the riffraff out
You: Except the riffraff with 10 bucks
Stranger: people get banned or probated if they're morons
You: probated?
Stranger: can't post for however many hours a mod gives them
You: Okay.
You: Slow down with the net lingo; my tiny pro-life brain can't take it!
You: :P
Stranger: all kinds of people...parents, pet owners, ed hardy's son, strippers, pornographers, think we had a monk...
Stranger: currently an ask/tell thread by an abortion clinic escort in the ask/tell forum
You: oh
You: So, how is there a significant difference between a viable and nonviable fetus if you're arguing "carry to term" and not "place in incubator"?
Stranger: >.<
You: This conversation is giving be brain fatigue. What's your favorite food?
Stranger: chicken marsala, I think
You: Mine is fried macaroni and cheese
Stranger: that's good, too lol
You: Yeah.
You: Pretty much anything with "cheese" and/or "fried" in the name is good.
Stranger: I need to get going now, though...boyfriend *wants* me and has been waiting patiently lol....(and don't worry, I'm on the pill and we use condoms, so there should be no need for an abortion! lol)
You: I'm tall with a high metabolism so I'm the perfect storm of eat-whatever-you-want-and-stay-bone-thin
You: ok just asec
Stranger: I
You: [Email redacted]
Stranger: why the e-mail?
You: You're by far the best conversation I've had.
Stranger: haha, wow
You: I want to continue it if just to talk about beanless tacos
Stranger: lol. do you have AIM? not really a e-mail person
You: I do; I'm just not sure what my ID is.
Stranger: sign up for a new one then lol
You: Shoot me an email and I'll reply with my AIM tag
You: Just lemme know it's you.
Stranger: what if I tell you my aim and you aim me when you can?
You: Okay, that works too.
Stranger: [AIM redacted]
You: Could you email me instructions? I can't figure out AIM.
Stranger: google for it. I don't like to give out my e-mail addy lol
You: okay
You: [AIM redacted] is now on my clipboard ill copy it into AIM
Stranger: mmk
You: Wait, you only have one email?
Stranger: how old are you? lol
You: I'm going on [typo of age].
Stranger: no, I have several...don't give any out
You: [actual age]* lol
You: I make several for the express purpose of iving out
Stranger: what [age] year old doesn't understand AIM? lol
Stranger: you've missed out on an important part of your technological development lol
You: [A(n) age] year old that prefers more recent interenet
You: I "joined the internet" so to speak when i was [earlier age]
Stranger: I was 16
You: Yeah, I rememeber lying about my age to get on to sites
You: stupid COPPA
Stranger: lol
Stranger: good times
You: yeah, i remember the AOL CDs
You: that may have put me off AOL
Stranger: why does a [age] year old guy care so much about abortion?
You: Well lemme tell you a little story
Stranger: eh, the only aol-related ting I use is aim
You: One upon a time
You: i used to be a fetus
You: I see every abortion going on as a tragedy and my conscience nags at me.
You: My flag is always at half-staff so to speak
You: dang that sounded dirty >_<
Stranger: glad it wasn;t just my mind that went there lol
You: I mean in the "mourning a loss" way not the "watched a really bad porno" way
Stranger: lol
You: Anyway, go give your BF what he wants; I'm sure he wont take "talking to some random" as an excuse. if you do get prego, just know there's folks out ther to help u thru
Stranger: just outta curiosity, where are you from? and are you very religious?
You: USA, and whatever the opposite is
Stranger: lol, he's amused by my omegle antics
Stranger: what state?
You: I was gonna ask you about religion but your "carry to term" comments put me off track
You: like im gonna tell you =P sorry paranoid ^_^
Stranger: I'm a catholic (though clearly a bad one lol...there are lots of bad catholics where I live (long island)
You: I'd like to chat you up over the existence of God over AIM
Stranger: I can't drive and public transportation scares me lol, I'm not gonna come and rape you. too lazy, also lol
You: man if i believed in an afterlife i could be a pro-choicer SO EASILY
You: especially if babies go straight to heaven
Stranger: lol
You: kill all the children below the age of reason!
Stranger: killin 6 year olds ain't cool, dude lol
You: It is if they get to go srtaight to the magical sky palace judgement-free
You: straight*
Aaaand, it got off-topic but she now knows I'm a real person with a personal life.

*Her later answer was "cuz the law says you can, they're not terribly developed, etc. I'm not saying any more on the subject".