Saturday, April 10, 2010

and I'm pro-choice no matter what you say

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
Stranger: hi
You: How do you feel about abortion?
Stranger: I'm pro-choice
Stranger: you?
You: I'm pro-choice and pro-life.
You: Abortion takes away a lifetime of choices.
Stranger: aha
Stranger: doesn't change my mind
You: The right to choose includes the right to not have death thrust upon you.
Stranger: a fetus understand doesn't even understand the concept of choosing anything. the woman gets to choose at that point
You: Okay, how about infanticide?
Stranger: that's different
You: A newborn baby doesn't even understand the concept of choosing anything either.
Stranger: they're still capable of more thought than a fetus
You: And a toddler is capable of more thought than an infant.
You: And so on.
Stranger: how many black crack babies have you adopted?
You: Mental handicap does not mean you lose your human rights.
You: How many abused children have YOU adopted?
You: You're attacking my character here, not my argument.
You: By your logic, you can't oppose spousal abuse unless you take in every abused spouse.
Stranger: I'm 22 and in school, I'm not in the position to be adopting anyone. however, as someone who WAS abused and who may be infertile, I may one day adopt a child.
Stranger: I'd be willing to helpan abused woman, though
You: If the chance was presented to me, and I was in the position of adopting, I would.
You: However, even if I myself was an abortionist, my arguments would stand on their own merits.
You: If you refuse to address my arguments and decide on personal attacks, that says something.
Stranger: not too many pro-lifers want to help those poor women who have kids they can't care for. they don't give a damn what happens once the kid is born. they're also usually the same people who oppose universal healthcare and moan about welfare queens
You: Hey, I support single-payer.
You: But that's irrelevant to the matter at hand.
You: We are discussing whether or not the prenatal offspring is a human being.
Stranger: it is a member of the species, yes. it's not really a person, though
You: Would the DNA of every unborn child suddenly change if I changed my stance on healthcare?
You: What;s the difference?
Stranger: it's not sentient and it hasn't been born
You: What do you mean by "sentient"?
Stranger: it doesn't know that it exists, it doesn't know what's going on, it's just a developing thing
You: The actual definition is the ability to perceive their environment.
You: Sapience is what you are refering to.
Stranger: I think "doesn't know what's going on" fits "perceiving the environment"
You: Anyway, how do your mental capabilities disqualify you from human rights.
You: Infants, after all, do not become sapient until months after birth, though the exact time varies and is under scientiic debate.
Stranger: it's not born yet. it's a little thing that's taking over a big portion of the woman's life
You: Some mentally handicapped adults would fall under your threshold of "person", including some Alzheimer's patients.
Stranger: and she has the right to get rid of it if she wants
You: Wait, so which is it?
You: Is it self-awareness or location?
Stranger: but they have been born, they really exist, people know them
Stranger: it's a combinattion of things
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind
You: You're confusing me here. Is it mental capacity, physical location, or the number of people who "know you" that grants human rights?
You: Is a hermit less of a person?
You: Or an Alzheimer's patient?
You: Does a trip of 9 inches change anything about the baby?
Stranger: it's a combination. an unwanted fetus doesn't know what's going on, it's not yet born, and it's unwanted
You: So, can an unwanted newborn be killed?
Stranger: no, because that's illegal and it has been born, and it's more developed
You: More developed than a 9-month fetus?
Stranger: I wouldn't want a 9 month fetus aborted either unless there was something terribly wrong with it
You: Okay, what about a 7-month baby that was born premature?
Stranger: that's different. it can survive outside the womb without assistance. a 1st trimester fetus can't
Stranger: with assistance*
You: What is your definition of "without assistance"?
You: oh
You: Well, that's really dependent upon current and local medical technology.
You: That doesn't seem like a good standard to measure rights.
Stranger: it's a thing. it doesn't get rights yet
You: Is the premature baby a "thing"?
Stranger: it can live, it's born, and it's wanted
You: Is an unwanted premature baby a "thing"?
You: It makes no sense to grant someone rights based on another's feelings towards him or her
You: As for "can live", are you saying babies that are not yet born are dead?
Stranger: if it's born and it can live, then people still have responsibilities towards it (though not the woman, if she signs it over)
Stranger: they're not dead, but they're more a part of the woman than they are a separate entity
You: Okay, what about an as of yet unborn 5 month baby?
Stranger: dude, you're not gonna change my mind
You: Do you know what the purpose of the placenta is?
Stranger: I'm about to graduate with a degree in biology, of course I know
You: Okay.
You: Do you know why the two circulatory systems have to use diffusion?
You: Why can't they just link directly?
You: That said, why does the embryo release immunosurpressant hormones at implantation?
Stranger: or else it'll be treated as a foreign body and expelled
You: The embryo or fetus is a foreign organism and would be recognized as such by the mother's immune system.
You: Human beings reproduce sexually, and as such our offspring have DNA that differs from ours.
You: In viviparous animals such as most mammals, the first part of life is spent inside the mother's body.
Stranger: it's still very much a part of the mother's body, though. it takes everything from her, and she has every right to get rid of something that's taking so much from her
You: Oviparous animals lay eggs, but it's the same idea.
You: Okay, you are correct there.
Stranger: no shit. bio degree, remember?
You: The embryo takes nutrients from the mother's bloodstream.
You: However, that does not make him PART OF his mother
You: He is merely dependent upon her
You: or is until the point of viability
You: If you have a bio degree, you should know sexual reproduction produces a new organism with the fusion of male and female gametes.
You: If the fetus was part of the mother, that would mean we reproduce asexually.
You: The fetus is half mother and half father.
Stranger: yeah, and she doesn't have to give it anything if she doesn't want to
You: Okay, so your argument is not that the fetus is not a person, but that the mother has rights that supercede that of the child.
You: Is that correct?
Stranger: yes, while it's at that stage
Stranger: it's like a parasite to her if she doesn't want it
You: Okay, so would that mean that you are against late-term abortions (after the point of viability)?
Stranger: if the fetus is healthy, then yes. i there is something horifically wrong with it, then I believe the woman should be ableto choose to abort it
You: Would you allow a nonhealthy newborn to be killed?
You: Is perfect health now needed for the right to live?
Stranger: honestly? if there was absolutely no hope for it, euthanasia may be best. however, once it is born, your options are keep it if it's wanted or surrender your parental rights if it's unwanted. totally different situation
You: Okay, would you allow them to shoot their born baby if no adoptive parents can be found?
Stranger: there are orphanages and foster parents
You: They're on a ship in the middle of the ocean.
You: They need to wait until they dock to find foster care.
Stranger: dude, when would that even happen? they have to care for it until they dock
Stranger: at which point they can surrender their rights
You: Okay, how far away can the dock get?
You: Is there a distance at which they can shoot the kid rather than wait 5 weeks?
You: Or 10?
You: or 22?
Stranger: you're talking about something that isn't going to happen. they're obligated to keep it alive until they surrender their rights
You: Couldn't they just surrender their rights on the boat and shoot him?
Stranger: there's no lawyer present
You: There will be when they reach shore with a corpse.
Stranger: you're talking about a ridiculous situation, just give up on it
You: But you agree that they must wait until docking?
Stranger: there will be a corpse if it's a sickly child, no doctor or supplies on board, etc
You: At which point an autopsy will reveal the cause of death.
Stranger: you have to do your best to keep a born baby alive until you can surrender your rights
You: It's pretty easy to tell starvation from massive head trauma.
Stranger: I'm not advocating that they kill it
Stranger: what are you even talking about? can't you read?
You: Well, by your logic, because the child is dependent upon his parents until docking, he would have no rights.
Stranger: if it's born, it has rights! jesus christ.....
You: Okay, so it is birth.
You: I'm glad we could clear that up.
You: So, late-term abortion of a healthy fetus is fine with you, then?
You: Even if the fetus could survive on his own?
Stranger: born and viable with assistance, and defects that aren't conducive to life
You: Okay, how much assistence has to be needed before abortion is okay?
Stranger: late term abortion of a healthy fetus is not okay because it can possibly survive with assistance and then be placed for adoption
You: Because medical technology is pushing viability further and further back.
Stranger: not THAT far back
You: Eventually artificial womb technology could push it all the way.
Stranger: and even if it was pushed that far back, it might live but might not turn out right
You: By your logic, however, the parents would need to "care for" the baby until "docking".
Stranger: I doubt it
Stranger: your analogy is ridiculous
You: Until the point at which they can give up their parental rights.
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind. morons like you make me even more pro-choice
You: Well, what's the difference?
You: I'm just trying to figure out what your line is; it seems to be jumping all over the place. Self-awareness, wantedness, viability, birth, back to viability,
Stranger: it's all involved
Stranger: my stance doesn't just depend on one thing
You: Well, you've established self-awareness is irrelevant by opposing late-term abortion and infanticide.
You: You've established wantedness is irrelevant by the docking admission.
You: Birth, again, premies
You: So we're left with viability.
Stranger: you're making me make decisions based on ridiculous situations
You: Which is still being pushed back.
Stranger: not that far, you fucking dumbass
You: Do you think we will never be able to simulate a mechanical uterus?
Stranger: not with any great success, no. either way, it's not an option right now
You: 300 years ago incubators weren't an option.
You: Were babies back then less human than they are now?
Stranger: we shouldn't change laws now just because of what could happen in the future
Stranger: that's irrelevent
You: Okay, so back then would you have supported late-term abortion?
Stranger: no, because they had no way of knowing if it was healthy
Stranger: no sonograms to find anencephaly, for example
You: Even a healthy midterm baby back then could not have survived outside the uterus.
You: By your logic, the same age fetus is more of a person now that we have better medical technology.
Stranger: because there was no option. I wouldn't want them doing abortions back then, either, simply because of the risk to the woman
You: Okay, if the abortions were safe, would you support aborting a fetus of an age that is viable now, but wasn't then?
You: Assuming perfect health.
Stranger: it doesn't matter, because that's not what the situation was back then. my stance is based on today's situation
You: Even today's situation is changing.
Stranger: not as much as it is in your dream land
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind
You: Even in the past half century, viability has gone back at least a weel.
You: week*
Stranger: I'm pro-choice and always will be
You: Is your argument that the fetus is a nonperson, or that the fetus is a person but can be removed?
You: Because I can't seem to tell.
You: What would be wrong with carrying to viability "at which point they can surrender their rights"?
Stranger: in today's day, I support abortions in any situation if the fetus is not viable, I support late term abortions if the fetus has serious problems, and if it were legal I would support euthanasia if horrible, unfixable problems were present at birth.
You: I can tell that, but what's your logic?
Stranger: it's not 300 years ago, I'm not on a boat, and I'm not in the future, so none of that matters
You: Yes, it does, because a 22-week fetus in 2010 and a 22-week fetus in 1386 are the same.
You: By your logic, it's wrong to kill the former.
Stranger: no it doesn't because it's not 1386, dumbass
You: But not the latter.
Stranger: I don't care! it's 2010!
You: Do you or do you not hold that viability is significant?
Stranger: your arguments are incredibly dumb
You: Answer the question. Is viability important?
Stranger: for me in 2010, yes
You: Okay, does that apply no matter when the point of viability is?
You: If in the next half-hour, a scientist came on the news and announced the mass-production of artificial wombs, would embryos get the right to life?
You: Not to mention that COUNTRIES with different standards of medical care have different points of viability.
Stranger: if a fetus in 2010 could suddenly survive in an artificial womb at 5 weeks gestation (WHICH IS NOT HAPPENING, ASSHAT), it would be trickier, but I would likely still be pr-choice because there surely would not be enough fake wombs to go around and the cost would be astronomical
You: Okay, what about a fetus at 8 months that needs an oxygenated incubator?
You: You DID say "with assistence"
Stranger: but I live in the US, so that's the only country that matters to me on this issue
You: The US is a member state of the UN.
You: As such, we could vote on allowing fetuses to be aborted in Africa that could survive here.
Stranger: a fetus born at 8 months and living in an incubator should be kept alive. the woman chooses to keep it or surrender her rights
Stranger: I don't care about the fucking UN
You: What if the baby is not yet born but could be placed in an incubator?
Stranger: then the woman needs to keep it in her until it's born because taking it out at that point and putting it in an incubator is costly and retarded
You: Okay, would you allow abortion at that point on a healthy baby?
Stranger: I already told you no
Stranger: you're not going to change my mind
Stranger: give up
Stranger: you're an idiot
You: At this, point, I'm just trying to understand you.
Stranger: no, you're not
You: You think that at 8 months, she should wait another month and surrender her rights, correct?
Stranger: I've already explained my stance, but you just keep coming up with ridiculous what-ifs
Stranger: yes
Stranger: but at, say, 8 weeks, abortion is an option and she can choose it
You: Okay.
You: Well, viability is now around 22 weeks.
You: Other times and locations aside, that's about where it's at here and now.
You: Would you want a 23 week fetus to be put in an incubator, or to be carried to term, assuming perfect health?
Stranger: carried to term
You: 22 weeks, again with perfect health?
You: The earliest premie was 21 weeks 5 days, BTW.
Stranger: carried to term.
You: Random question: do you like burritos?
Stranger: yes
You: I could never really get into beans of any sort.
Stranger: I get them without beans
You: They make those?
You: How?
Stranger: if you ask them to
You: wouldnt that be an empty tortilla?
Stranger: meat, rice, sauce
Stranger: I eat chicken or beef burritos
You: Ah, sort of like a taco cigar. ^_^
Stranger: mmhmm
You: What kind of sauce?
Stranger: ehh, just like, salsa maybe
Stranger: you're weird
You: Cheddar cheese, I assume?
Stranger: cheese too
You: I might have to try that.
You: What kind of cheese?
Stranger: at school I like to get it with chicken or beef, rice, cooked bell peppers, and cheddar cheese. dip it in salsa and sour cream
You: i never knew they made beanless burritos
You: you learn something every day.
You: Anyways, if the fetuses aren't being put into incubators anyway and are being carried to term, why does it matter how expensive or available incubators/fake uteruses are, or at which point viability occurs at that time or place?
Stranger: you can shove whatever you want into a tortilla and cal it whatever you want, it's all good
You: Okay, LOL
You: Oh, god, I got the worst mental image
Stranger: fetus burrito?
You: No, penis burrito
Stranger: yummy. I know what the sauce would be in that case
You: Strangers will be trying to sell you those on Omegle and Chatroulette once someone figures that out lol
Stranger: indeed
You: Anyways, if the fetuses aren't being put into incubators anyway and are being carried to term, why does it matter how expensive or available incubators/fake uteruses are, or at which point viability occurs at that time or place?
You: What's the practical difference?
Stranger: don't know, don't care, I'm tired of this, and I'm pro-choice no matter what you say*
You: Wow, you sure are open-minded.
You: If I could make sense of your arguments, I could become pro-choice. I'd like that.
You: Being pro-life is such a load on my conscience :(
Stranger: you could just have no opinion, never vote, and live in blissful ignorance of it all
You: LOL, I wish I could.
You: I've gotta admit, you are one of the more complex pro-abortion people I've met here.
You: Most people here drool out of both mouths.
You: *sides of their mouths
Stranger: not pro-abortion. pro-choice. I don't like the idea of abortion and would likely have trouble choosing it for myself, but I'd never deny the right to choose to anyone else
You: Okay.
You: Does pro-gun mean you want everyone to have a gun, or you just want them to have the choice?
You: What about pro-gambling?
Stranger: I don't like guns lol
You: True, neither do I.
You: However, because I believe in gun-choice, American political lingo dictates I be called pro-gun.
You: It's really irrelevant either way; we can just say "for legal abortion" or "against legal abortion"
Stranger: if people want to have a gun or want to gamble, they can legally do those things. I can only hope they won't do anything stupid
You: Yeah, like you can trust humans to not be stupid.
You: LOL
You: I've learned my lesson from the Republican Party.
You: No offense if you're a GOP member
Stranger: hell fucking no, I'd rather die than vote republican. my bf would also leave me lol
You: LOL, smart boyfriend.
You: Yeah, same.
You: I don't really like Democrats either; their beliefs aren't leftist enough and they rarely have the guts to stand up for even those.
You: Dems in power cave WAAAAY too much.
Stranger: I vote democrat because generally only rep or dem actually has a chance of winning an election and I'd rather have a dem in power than a republican
You: Third parties have no chance of winning only if everyone's too scaredto vote for them is my motto.
Stranger: true, but even if I'm not scared, I know just about everyone else is, so there still isn't much of a point
You: I'm wondering, though, why you "don't like the idea of abortion and would likely have trouble choosing it"?
You: Ah, mob mentality.
You: If just about everyone else jumped of a bridge, would you et cetera
Stranger: well, it's not a pleasant thing. I'd probably be all emotional and be like "but my baaaaaaabyyyyyyyy" lol
You: better than "but my babbbbbbbbbbbbby"
You: ill never understand what people mean by that sort of thing
Stranger: babby? goon?
You: you cant draw out most consonanttttttttttts
Stranger: oh lol
Stranger: thought you were referring to something else lol
You: that only works on vowels and some consonents
You: no lol
You: how is babby formed?
You: they need to do way instain mother
Stranger: how woman get pragnet
Stranger: ?
You: im pretty sure it's how girl get pragnent
Stranger: no, woman
Stranger: fairly certain of that
You: googling it now
Stranger: haven't seen it in a while
You: nope its girl
Stranger: ahhh, musta been confusing it with woman in AR killing her three chirlden
You: oh lol
You: yeah
Stranger: or however it goes lol
You: they need to do way instain mother
Stranger: are you a goon? /b/tard? other? lol
You: who kill their babby because these babby can't frigth back
Stranger: mmhmm
You: They need to do way instain mother> who kill thier babbys. becuse these babby cant frigth back?
it was on the news this mroing a mother in ar who had kill her three kids . they are taking the three babby back to new york too lady to rest my pary are with the father who lost his chrilden ; i am truley sorry for your lots
Stranger: lol
You: some people on the tubes need an antilobotomy
Stranger: mmhmm
Stranger: why won't you answer my question? lol
You: Which one?
Stranger: are you a goon? /b/tard? other?
You: Oh, no, too many randoms posting pictures of their junk.
You: If I wanted to see a penis I'd look in my pants >_<
Stranger: I'm a goon (well, goonette). very rarely do we get pics of junk lol (and if we do, we NWS/NMS it lol)
You: What's a goon? That term is unfamiliar to me.
Stranger: except for keyboard goop....that was quite the banme thread lol
Stranger: somethingawful forums member
You: oh
You: What's NWS/NMS?
Stranger: not work safe/not mind safe
You: oh
You: ive always seen NSFW
Stranger: great place, costs tenbux to join, helps keep the riffraff out
You: Except the riffraff with 10 bucks
Stranger: people get banned or probated if they're morons
You: probated?
Stranger: can't post for however many hours a mod gives them
You: Okay.
You: Slow down with the net lingo; my tiny pro-life brain can't take it!
You: :P
Stranger: all kinds of people...parents, pet owners, ed hardy's son, strippers, pornographers, think we had a monk...
Stranger: currently an ask/tell thread by an abortion clinic escort in the ask/tell forum
You: oh
You: So, how is there a significant difference between a viable and nonviable fetus if you're arguing "carry to term" and not "place in incubator"?
Stranger: >.<
You: This conversation is giving be brain fatigue. What's your favorite food?
Stranger: chicken marsala, I think
You: Mine is fried macaroni and cheese
Stranger: that's good, too lol
You: Yeah.
You: Pretty much anything with "cheese" and/or "fried" in the name is good.
Stranger: I need to get going now, though...boyfriend *wants* me and has been waiting patiently lol....(and don't worry, I'm on the pill and we use condoms, so there should be no need for an abortion! lol)
You: I'm tall with a high metabolism so I'm the perfect storm of eat-whatever-you-want-and-stay-bone-thin
You: ok just asec
Stranger: I
You: [Email redacted]
Stranger: why the e-mail?
You: You're by far the best conversation I've had.
Stranger: haha, wow
You: I want to continue it if just to talk about beanless tacos
Stranger: lol. do you have AIM? not really a e-mail person
You: I do; I'm just not sure what my ID is.
Stranger: sign up for a new one then lol
You: Shoot me an email and I'll reply with my AIM tag
You: Just lemme know it's you.
Stranger: what if I tell you my aim and you aim me when you can?
You: Okay, that works too.
Stranger: [AIM redacted]
You: Could you email me instructions? I can't figure out AIM.
Stranger: google for it. I don't like to give out my e-mail addy lol
You: okay
You: [AIM redacted] is now on my clipboard ill copy it into AIM
Stranger: mmk
You: Wait, you only have one email?
Stranger: how old are you? lol
You: I'm going on [typo of age].
Stranger: no, I have several...don't give any out
You: [actual age]* lol
You: I make several for the express purpose of iving out
Stranger: what [age] year old doesn't understand AIM? lol
Stranger: you've missed out on an important part of your technological development lol
You: [A(n) age] year old that prefers more recent interenet
You: I "joined the internet" so to speak when i was [earlier age]
Stranger: I was 16
You: Yeah, I rememeber lying about my age to get on to sites
You: stupid COPPA
Stranger: lol
Stranger: good times
You: yeah, i remember the AOL CDs
You: that may have put me off AOL
Stranger: why does a [age] year old guy care so much about abortion?
You: Well lemme tell you a little story
Stranger: eh, the only aol-related ting I use is aim
You: One upon a time
You: i used to be a fetus
You: I see every abortion going on as a tragedy and my conscience nags at me.
You: My flag is always at half-staff so to speak
You: dang that sounded dirty >_<
Stranger: glad it wasn;t just my mind that went there lol
You: I mean in the "mourning a loss" way not the "watched a really bad porno" way
Stranger: lol
You: Anyway, go give your BF what he wants; I'm sure he wont take "talking to some random" as an excuse. if you do get prego, just know there's folks out ther to help u thru
Stranger: just outta curiosity, where are you from? and are you very religious?
You: USA, and whatever the opposite is
Stranger: lol, he's amused by my omegle antics
Stranger: what state?
You: I was gonna ask you about religion but your "carry to term" comments put me off track
You: like im gonna tell you =P sorry paranoid ^_^
Stranger: I'm a catholic (though clearly a bad one lol...there are lots of bad catholics where I live (long island)
You: I'd like to chat you up over the existence of God over AIM
Stranger: I can't drive and public transportation scares me lol, I'm not gonna come and rape you. too lazy, also lol
You: man if i believed in an afterlife i could be a pro-choicer SO EASILY
You: especially if babies go straight to heaven
Stranger: lol
You: kill all the children below the age of reason!
Stranger: killin 6 year olds ain't cool, dude lol
You: It is if they get to go srtaight to the magical sky palace judgement-free
You: straight*
Aaaand, it got off-topic but she now knows I'm a real person with a personal life.

*Her later answer was "cuz the law says you can, they're not terribly developed, etc. I'm not saying any more on the subject".

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