Frankly, there is nothing wrong with murder

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!

You: Hey.

Stranger: hello

You: Did you hear about Zoe Ball?

Stranger: no. whats that?

You: A baby in Australia.

Stranger: ok, well im sorry. i live in canada.

You: She was recently killed in utero when her mother was run down by a drunk driver.

Stranger: oh damn

You: But the New South Wales law basically says they never existen.

You: she never existed*

Stranger: how?

You: They won't let her parents file a murder or manslaughter charge.

Stranger: what kind of law is that??

You: A stupid one.

You: And Zoe was 8 months!

Stranger: obviously. i mean what the fuck?

Stranger: what does the law state?

You: Since Zoe hadn't taken her first breath the law didn't recognize her as human.

Stranger: oh. she wasn't born yet

You: Yeah.

Stranger: still, the driver should have been prosecuted

You: I said "killed in utero".

You: The police report did not even mention Zoe's death!

Stranger: maybe it hadn't been confirmed?

You: No, the law in Australia just doesn't give a shit about you if you haven't been born.

Stranger: um north america has a political party that is the same way

You: That's stupid.

Stranger: im guessing you're anti-abortion?

You: Yeah, I am.

Stranger: i honestly think that after 3 months, when the child has consciousness, the mother should no longer be able to abort it

You: What do you mean by "consciousnedd"?

You: ss*

Stranger: if the child can have thoughts, or can learn at that stage, then it should be considered human

You: What do you mean by "thoughts"?

Stranger: but before that, i think the mother should be able to abort

You: Because before about a year after birth, a baby's "thoughts" are below that of some animals.

Stranger: even so, animals have rights

You: So, you think that someone gets rights based on their mental capabilities?

Stranger: no, i think that the world is overpopulated, and some people get pregnant without intention.

Stranger: condoms are not perfect.

You: So you think that it's okay to kill people to reduce the population?

Stranger: lol absolutely. born or not, it has to be done. People die all the time. Death is the only real certainty. I don't look at it with a cynical point of view

Stranger: i mean, i wouldn't volunteer, but if it happened to me, that's the way it goes

You: Seriously?

Stranger: are you a christian?

You: No, I'm not.

Stranger: atheist?

You: Yes.

Stranger: same as me

You: I'm a humanist, though.

You: I like to be moral and I don't like solving problems with violence.

Stranger: what do you believe the meaning of life is?

You: I think the meaning of life is whatever you make it.

Stranger: exactly. it's your perception

Stranger: there is no truth in morality

You: Should it be legal just to go on a raping spree?

Stranger: morality is nice, but it's a social code of conduct, which is easily dropped when times are tough

Stranger: no, that would disrupt society greatly

You: so?

Stranger: societies are just like a bee hive

Stranger: the workers get enough to live, and work all their lives

Stranger: knowing that the hive doesnt give a fuck about them

You: okay, should it be legal for parents to kill their children up to 6 years of age if they get too expensive?

Stranger: and when they die, they die with the delusion that they made a difference. That their life meant something

Stranger: people used to do it.

You: Should they be allowed to?

Stranger: the only difference is now society says it's wrong

You: Society is starting to say abortion is wrong.

Stranger: No, if they did that, humanity itself might be in danger

Stranger: well society has gone too far the wrong way

Stranger: they went from being too tough to being pussies

You: So should it be legal to kill a 6-year-old?

Stranger: I don't go by social standards. i go by my own

Stranger: i already said no

You: Why not?

Stranger: but for logical reasons, not moral ones

Stranger: you like to feel moral because you feel good

Stranger: so feel good about yourself when living people are starving to death because of a bastard child that a whore couldn't abort.

You: Why can't you kill a toddler that you can't feed, then?

Stranger: it's not accepted in our society. not all

You: Abortion is starting to be not accepted in our society.

Stranger: by some

Stranger: not all

You: Okay, how about slavery?

Stranger: christianity is also widely accepted in our society

You: Should slavery be allowed?

You: For a long time, slavery was embraced by society.

Stranger: there's no need of it. We all work for the ones who don't pay taxes. Slavery is still embraced, just hidden in a fascism

You: Sigh. I'm talking about actual, chains-and-whips-and-plantations slavery.

Stranger: well that's hard to answer

Stranger: i guess it doesn't matter. as long as it helps humanity, but even then it means nothing

Stranger: i mean the pyramids and the collosseum were built by slaves

You: Not true, actually.

Stranger: yes it is

Stranger: lol

You: Watch the History Channel. We recently discovered they were built by regular workers.

Stranger: i watch the history channel. it's not always right

You: But what good are the pyramids?

Stranger: the nostradamus effect for instance

You: They could've done the same thing with a small hole and a headstone.

Stranger: it was their religious belief.

You: So?

Stranger: btw what does this have to do with abortion?

You: You said that abortion was okay because society accepts it.

You: Society accepted slavery.

You: Society in the middle east accepts stoning rape victims.

You: Society is often horribly, horribly wrong.

Stranger: sry

Stranger: looking at something

Stranger: but if what you say is true, then you could be wrong

Stranger: there is not a damn thing you can say scientifically that says what is morally right

Stranger: other than "it's wrong"

You: So does that mean we should go into a state of anarchy where anyone can kill anyone at any age for any reason?

Stranger: that's not what im suggesting at all. You're missing the point

You: Well if morality is nonexistent what would be wrong with it?

Stranger: You think that understanding of morality means the full collapse of society

Stranger: but i'd like to show you that you are immoral. and it's ok

Stranger: please name one thing you've done selflessly

You: I've never killed anyone.

Stranger: that's not selfless. you did it because you knew if u did kill someone you'd get arrested and feel bad. That's fear of punishment

You: I wouldn't kill anyone even if it was legal.

Stranger: you calculated the pros and cons

Stranger: you say that now, because you think you'd feel bad

Stranger: you think you're better than an animal?

You: No, I don't.

You: Animals automatically behave according to a moral code that's in their genes.

You: I have the option to "sin".

Stranger: well animals kill what they need to survive. There is no moral code. it's instinct to survive

Stranger: they want to live, and every species is competing for dominance

You: Animals don't kill eachother willy nilly.

Stranger: untrue

Stranger: animals kill for territory

You: Animals even form societies to protect one another.

Stranger: yes, to survive

Stranger: it's a selfish need

Stranger: an instinct

You: yes

You: correct.

Stranger: so you've not refuted anything i've said

You: What did you say?

Stranger: that moral codes do not exist. They are rules pushed into our brains when we were young.

Stranger: Frankly, there is nothing wrong with murder

You: There isn't?

Stranger: nope

You: Okay.

You: Here's my offer.

You: Would you vote for a pro-murder politician?

You: Would you sign a law decriminalizing rape?

Stranger: noo. but not because murder is wrong. because that would have a negative effect on me, and anyone around me, which would inevitably affect me

You: Okay, how old are you?

Stranger: does that matter?

You: Yes, it does.

Stranger: im 16.

You: Would you vote for a politician who supported murdering and/or raping those 15 and under?

Stranger: i already answered you.

You: You're 16.

You: I said 15 and under.

Stranger: noo. but not because murder is wrong. because that would have a negative effect on me, and anyone around me, which would inevitably affect me

Stranger: i know people 15 and under

You: How young is your youngest friend?

Stranger: if it were people i don't know, probably not. im not completely without moral fiber, and if it takes the little effort of marking a paper, why not?

Stranger: after all, you can't wipe someone completely once they've been brainwashed

You: Okay, you vote for a politician who supported murdering and/or raping those 2 and under?

Stranger: na. i want to have a kid one day

You: So?

Stranger: i don't want him/her to be raped

You: Okay, then would vote for a politician who supported murdering those 2 and under

Stranger: i said no

Stranger: because i want kids

You: Okay, then would vote for a politician who supported murdering those 0 and under

Stranger: look man, we can continue the what if game, but the simple fact is, i use my calculations the same way u use morals, but i throw out the bullshit reasoning.

You: If you want to have a baby, how would you feel if she was killed like Zoe was?

Stranger: obviously terrible. but manslaughter is not abortion

Stranger: only the mother should eb able to abort the child

Stranger: be*

You: why?

Stranger: because it's her responsibility

Stranger: it's her pain

Stranger: it's her life,

You: It's your responsibility too.

Stranger: the father shouldn't have a say. That would be taking the mother's freedom of choice away

You: The father doesn't get a choice?

Stranger: he has the choice to stay or go

You: What about child support?

Stranger: well as i said, if the mother had 3 months to abort it, knew the father wouldn't be around, then he shouldn't pay

Stranger: my mother raised me alone without it.

You: Not everyone knows their pregnant by 3 months.

Stranger: and if they don't then they're stuck with it

Stranger: she should get tested

You: That's not taking the mother's freedom of choice away?

Stranger: well it would at that point be murder

Stranger: when she has it, she can give it up for adoption

You: I thought there was nothing wrong with murder.

Stranger: not morally, but legally

You: Okay, so whatever the law says goes?

Stranger: lol you think otherwise?

You: Because the law says abortion is also okay after 3 months.

Stranger: it's not a choice. if you break the law, you go to jail or pay a fine.

Stranger: now it does yes,

Stranger: i disagree with both sides

You: Okay, so what's wrong with killing a 6-month fetus?

Stranger: it can think.

You: So can an adult.

Stranger: it now has the main human trait

You: But you said there's nothing wrong with murder.

Stranger: i feel like im running in circles lol

Stranger: LEGALLY it's prohibited

Stranger: MORALLY, fuck it

You: But LEGALLY it's okay to kill a 6-month fetus.

Stranger: i said i disagree

You: How can you disagree with it?

You: LEGALLY it's okay, and MORALLY all murder is fine.

Stranger: no morally, im indifferent

Stranger: which leaves it to legallity

You: But it's legal to kill a 6-month fetus.

You: What basis do you have to oppose killing said fetus.

Stranger: murder is illegal

You: Yes, but abortion is not.

Stranger: i never said the law is perfect

You: But without morality what do you have to compare the law with?

Stranger: but killing something that can't think is hardly murder

Stranger: i don't need anything. Legallity in itself is a self-justifying system in many cases

You: Okay.

Stranger: btw how old r u?

You: 17.

You: You disagree with the law on 3-9 month fetuses.

You: How so?

Stranger: i've stated it about 12 times. i can;t do it again

You: If it is both morally and legally acceptable.

Stranger: because if people say murder is illegal, i agree. If people say that women should not be stuck with children they can't afford, i agree

Stranger: this is a compromise

You: The law allows abortions at 4 months, and according to you morality allows murder at ANY age.

Stranger: ah 4 months is close enough

You: 6 months then.

Stranger: morality is not something you can argue

Stranger: it's why neither of us can win this arguement. you keep your extremist opinion, and refuse my compromise

You: I just want to know what you're basing this position on.

You: It's not law and it's not morality.

You: What's the third option?

Stranger: Just because i want it legal, doesn't mean it's not a legal position, and you're right, it's not moral

You: Huh?

Stranger: the law changes. this is the way i want it to be

Stranger: so that it is fair in all positions

You: Okay, so you're talking about what the law should be.

You: So what do you base this desire on?

You: Something outside the law, obviously.

Stranger: the law is used to keep fairness. i dont hold my opinion strongly. Frankly, i hope i never need abortion, but it's possible

You: Okay, so your opinion is based on fairness?

Stranger: yes.

You: Is it fair for a woman to be denied an abortion just because she found out she was pregnant too late?

Stranger: yes. she wasn't careful enough.

You: Is it fair for a woman to be denied an abortion at 2 and a half months??

Stranger: nope

You: she wasn't careful enough either.

You: both got pregnant.

Stranger: but the child didn't suffer

Stranger: he didnt feel anything

Stranger: therefore he didnt exist

You: Is abortion at 9 months fair if the child is anesthetized?

Stranger: no. it can still think

Stranger: it was alive

Stranger: that's like saying "is it ok to kill a human if he's asleep?"

You: And the 2-month baby is not alive?

Stranger: morally, sure, but legally, nope

Stranger: a fucking tree is alive

Stranger: doesnt make it special

You: Why does mental capacity make you special?

Stranger: because it differenciates you from a tree.

You: So does size and mobility.

Stranger: you cant be mobile without a brain

Stranger: and do u think anyone would care about you if you stood in the yard all damn day?

Stranger: no matter how big u are

Stranger: ive been on defense this whole arguement and it's kinda boring.

You: So what's so special about mental capability that distinguishes it from all the other differences between you and a tree?

You: Species also distinguishes us from a tree.

Stranger: because without it, you would not argue, you could not laugh, or cry or feel. you would not be human.

Stranger: Frankly i don't care if a braindead person dies

You: I would be human.

Stranger: not to me

You: Every cell in my body would still be screaming "Homo s. sapiens"

Stranger: the cells that can't speak. the ones that die all the time and don't amount to shit.

Stranger: people die all the time. might as well get used to it

Stranger: it will NEVER change

You: But it's not fair to kill people.

Stranger: how? death is unbias. IF you die because you pissed someone off, you paid the consequences

Stranger: if you die from cancer, that's unfair too

Stranger: death is random

You: So you think murder is fair but abortion at 5 months isn't?

Stranger: a living person has a chance to live.

You: A 3-month fetus is alive.

Stranger: it hasn't thought or experienced anything

Stranger: it doesnt hurt

Stranger: it doesnt care

You: A person under anesthesia doesn't hurt or care either

Stranger: ive adressed this already

Stranger: besides, why not kill someone under anesthesia? he's lived.

You: Okay, so all that matters is if you've experienced something?

Stranger: it's fair to the mother that she gets a chance to escape poverty, and it's fair that the child get's a chance to live.

Stranger: there is no other way that offers both

Stranger: you've taken the side of a fetus over a human

You: What species would you class a human's fetus as?

Stranger: i mean a real person

You: The mother who finds out she's pregnant at 4 months has no chance to escape poverty.

Stranger: not a mass of flesh that isn't even alive

Stranger: well that mother had a chance and blew it

You: If the fetus isn't alive, why does it need food?

You: The fetus that's killed at 2.9 months gets no chance to live.

Stranger: need i use the tree analogy again?

You: A tree is alive.

Stranger: would you save it over a human?

You: No, I wouldn't.

You: What species would you class a human's fetus as?

Stranger: human, but it's more similar to a tree.

Stranger: but why not save a tree over a human?

You: We've established that the fetus is human

You: And is alive.

Stranger: a tree is alive

You: A tree is not human.

Stranger: so?

Stranger: what makes u better than a tree? u asked the same question.

You: I'm not better than a tree. I only ask for protection from my fellow humans.

You: If I was a tree, I'd save the tree over the human.

Stranger: so your moral code is exclusive?

You: My moral code applies to intraspecies conduct.

Stranger: so it is

Stranger: so you're looking at species. i look at individuals

You: Individuals make up a species.

Stranger: i'd rather save my dog than some people. is that morally wrong?

You: In addition, "species" is a characterisitc of individuals

You: yes

Stranger: so you are bias

You: Not horribly wrong, though.

Stranger: doesnt matter

You: I'm more concerned about direct aggression.

You: If you would choose to kill a person over a dog, that is immoral.

Stranger: i dont care. your moral code says save humans over animals, even though you say you are not better and humans are no better

Stranger: in my world, that is called hypocracy

You: No, my moral code says to prefer my own species.

You: If I was a dog, I'd save the dog.

Stranger: but you're not a dog, you're not a fetus, and you're not a mother

You: I used to be a fetus.

You: I am a human.

Stranger: the mother was a fetus too

You: Yes, and I wouldn't kill her either.

You: Thus, my morality tells me to stick up for other humans.

Stranger: but u prefer the fetus over the mother

You: No.

You: If a fetus wanted to abort his mother, I'd standup for the mother.

Stranger: it's death u have a problem with

You: I have a problem with violence.

Stranger: what do u believe happens after death?

You: I don't know.

Stranger: what do u think?

You: I've never died.

Stranger: well you've never been a mother, you cant remember being a fetus and you've never died...

You: I don't remember being 2 either, but I can still say it's wrong to kill toddlers.

Stranger: but you'd kill every toddler in the world if it meant saving yourself

You: So what?

Stranger: it's a strawman

Stranger: your moral code is easily dropped

You: I don't think rationally under pressure.

You: That's why we have laws.

Stranger: now you've had 2 hours, and you've not convinced me

You: If we could trust people to be moral, we wouldn't need the law.

Stranger: give me one reason why killing babies is wrong?

You: Just one?

Stranger: yep .one irrefutable one

You: It deprives them of their future, as does murder at any age.

Stranger: but why is that matter?

You: Why does it matter that a tree can't think?

You: Killing babies also goes against the biological origin of the very concept of morality.

Stranger: lol biological origin?

You: Yes.

You: Morality evolved as a survival instinct for species.

Stranger: instincts and morals are not the same

You: Without the instincts we'd have no concept of "right" and "wrong"

Stranger: you know right from wrong because you were told

Stranger: not because you evolved

You: Even babies have morals.

You: Animals too.

Stranger: no they don't

Stranger: they have instincts

You: And where exactly did my parents get the knowledge of right and wrong?

Stranger: from their parents

You: Where did the concept originate?

Stranger: and over time, as it benefitted more people, they made up better moralities

Stranger: and passed them on like a religion

You: Where did my grandparents learn of morality?

Stranger: sorry, but im done this retarded conversation. bye :)

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