Wednesday, May 26, 2010

Frankly, there is nothing wrong with murder

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: Hey.
Stranger: hello
You: Did you hear about Zoe Ball?
Stranger: no. whats that?
You: A baby in Australia.
Stranger: ok, well im sorry. i live in canada.
You: She was recently killed in utero when her mother was run down by a drunk driver.
Stranger: oh damn
You: But the New South Wales law basically says they never existen.
You: she never existed*
Stranger: how?
You: They won't let her parents file a murder or manslaughter charge.
Stranger: what kind of law is that??
You: A stupid one.
You: And Zoe was 8 months!
Stranger: obviously. i mean what the fuck?
Stranger: what does the law state?
You: Since Zoe hadn't taken her first breath the law didn't recognize her as human.
Stranger: oh. she wasn't born yet
You: Yeah.
Stranger: still, the driver should have been prosecuted
You: I said "killed in utero".
You: The police report did not even mention Zoe's death!
Stranger: maybe it hadn't been confirmed?
You: No, the law in Australia just doesn't give a shit about you if you haven't been born.
Stranger: um north america has a political party that is the same way
You: That's stupid.
Stranger: im guessing you're anti-abortion?
You: Yeah, I am.
Stranger: i honestly think that after 3 months, when the child has consciousness, the mother should no longer be able to abort it
You: What do you mean by "consciousnedd"?
You: ss*
Stranger: if the child can have thoughts, or can learn at that stage, then it should be considered human
You: What do you mean by "thoughts"?
Stranger: but before that, i think the mother should be able to abort
You: Because before about a year after birth, a baby's "thoughts" are below that of some animals.
Stranger: even so, animals have rights
You: So, you think that someone gets rights based on their mental capabilities?
Stranger: no, i think that the world is overpopulated, and some people get pregnant without intention.
Stranger: condoms are not perfect.
You: So you think that it's okay to kill people to reduce the population?
Stranger: lol absolutely. born or not, it has to be done. People die all the time. Death is the only real certainty. I don't look at it with a cynical point of view
Stranger: i mean, i wouldn't volunteer, but if it happened to me, that's the way it goes
You: Seriously?
Stranger: are you a christian?
You: No, I'm not.
Stranger: atheist?
You: Yes.
Stranger: same as me
You: I'm a humanist, though.
You: I like to be moral and I don't like solving problems with violence.
Stranger: what do you believe the meaning of life is?
You: I think the meaning of life is whatever you make it.
Stranger: exactly. it's your perception
Stranger: there is no truth in morality
You: Should it be legal just to go on a raping spree?
Stranger: morality is nice, but it's a social code of conduct, which is easily dropped when times are tough
Stranger: no, that would disrupt society greatly
You: so?
Stranger: societies are just like a bee hive
Stranger: the workers get enough to live, and work all their lives
Stranger: knowing that the hive doesnt give a fuck about them
You: okay, should it be legal for parents to kill their children up to 6 years of age if they get too expensive?
Stranger: and when they die, they die with the delusion that they made a difference. That their life meant something
Stranger: people used to do it.
You: Should they be allowed to?
Stranger: the only difference is now society says it's wrong
You: Society is starting to say abortion is wrong.
Stranger: No, if they did that, humanity itself might be in danger
Stranger: well society has gone too far the wrong way
Stranger: they went from being too tough to being pussies
You: So should it be legal to kill a 6-year-old?
Stranger: I don't go by social standards. i go by my own
Stranger: i already said no
You: Why not?
Stranger: but for logical reasons, not moral ones
Stranger: you like to feel moral because you feel good
Stranger: so feel good about yourself when living people are starving to death because of a bastard child that a whore couldn't abort.
You: Why can't you kill a toddler that you can't feed, then?
Stranger: it's not accepted in our society. not all
You: Abortion is starting to be not accepted in our society.
Stranger: by some
Stranger: not all
You: Okay, how about slavery?
Stranger: christianity is also widely accepted in our society
You: Should slavery be allowed?
You: For a long time, slavery was embraced by society.
Stranger: there's no need of it. We all work for the ones who don't pay taxes. Slavery is still embraced, just hidden in a fascism
You: Sigh. I'm talking about actual, chains-and-whips-and-plantations slavery.
Stranger: well that's hard to answer
Stranger: i guess it doesn't matter. as long as it helps humanity, but even then it means nothing
Stranger: i mean the pyramids and the collosseum were built by slaves
You: Not true, actually.
Stranger: yes it is
Stranger: lol
You: Watch the History Channel. We recently discovered they were built by regular workers.
Stranger: i watch the history channel. it's not always right
You: But what good are the pyramids?
Stranger: the nostradamus effect for instance
You: They could've done the same thing with a small hole and a headstone.
Stranger: it was their religious belief.
You: So?
Stranger: btw what does this have to do with abortion?
You: You said that abortion was okay because society accepts it.
You: Society accepted slavery.
You: Society in the middle east accepts stoning rape victims.
You: Society is often horribly, horribly wrong.
Stranger: sry
Stranger: looking at something
Stranger: but if what you say is true, then you could be wrong
Stranger: there is not a damn thing you can say scientifically that says what is morally right
Stranger: other than "it's wrong"
You: So does that mean we should go into a state of anarchy where anyone can kill anyone at any age for any reason?
Stranger: that's not what im suggesting at all. You're missing the point
You: Well if morality is nonexistent what would be wrong with it?
Stranger: You think that understanding of morality means the full collapse of society
Stranger: but i'd like to show you that you are immoral. and it's ok
Stranger: please name one thing you've done selflessly
You: I've never killed anyone.
Stranger: that's not selfless. you did it because you knew if u did kill someone you'd get arrested and feel bad. That's fear of punishment
You: I wouldn't kill anyone even if it was legal.
Stranger: you calculated the pros and cons
Stranger: you say that now, because you think you'd feel bad
Stranger: you think you're better than an animal?
You: No, I don't.
You: Animals automatically behave according to a moral code that's in their genes.
You: I have the option to "sin".
Stranger: well animals kill what they need to survive. There is no moral code. it's instinct to survive
Stranger: they want to live, and every species is competing for dominance
You: Animals don't kill eachother willy nilly.
Stranger: untrue
Stranger: animals kill for territory
You: Animals even form societies to protect one another.
Stranger: yes, to survive
Stranger: it's a selfish need
Stranger: an instinct
You: yes
You: correct.
Stranger: so you've not refuted anything i've said
You: What did you say?
Stranger: that moral codes do not exist. They are rules pushed into our brains when we were young.
Stranger: Frankly, there is nothing wrong with murder
You: There isn't?
Stranger: nope
You: Okay.
You: Here's my offer.
You: Would you vote for a pro-murder politician?
You: Would you sign a law decriminalizing rape?
Stranger: noo. but not because murder is wrong. because that would have a negative effect on me, and anyone around me, which would inevitably affect me
You: Okay, how old are you?
Stranger: does that matter?
You: Yes, it does.
Stranger: im 16.
You: Would you vote for a politician who supported murdering and/or raping those 15 and under?
Stranger: i already answered you.
You: You're 16.
You: I said 15 and under.
Stranger: noo. but not because murder is wrong. because that would have a negative effect on me, and anyone around me, which would inevitably affect me
Stranger: i know people 15 and under
You: How young is your youngest friend?
Stranger: if it were people i don't know, probably not. im not completely without moral fiber, and if it takes the little effort of marking a paper, why not?
Stranger: after all, you can't wipe someone completely once they've been brainwashed
You: Okay, you vote for a politician who supported murdering and/or raping those 2 and under?
Stranger: na. i want to have a kid one day
You: So?
Stranger: i don't want him/her to be raped
You: Okay, then would vote for a politician who supported murdering those 2 and under
Stranger: i said no
Stranger: because i want kids
You: Okay, then would vote for a politician who supported murdering those 0 and under
Stranger: look man, we can continue the what if game, but the simple fact is, i use my calculations the same way u use morals, but i throw out the bullshit reasoning.
You: If you want to have a baby, how would you feel if she was killed like Zoe was?
Stranger: obviously terrible. but manslaughter is not abortion
Stranger: only the mother should eb able to abort the child
Stranger: be*
You: why?
Stranger: because it's her responsibility
Stranger: it's her pain
Stranger: it's her life,
You: It's your responsibility too.
Stranger: the father shouldn't have a say. That would be taking the mother's freedom of choice away
You: The father doesn't get a choice?
Stranger: he has the choice to stay or go
You: What about child support?
Stranger: well as i said, if the mother had 3 months to abort it, knew the father wouldn't be around, then he shouldn't pay
Stranger: my mother raised me alone without it.
You: Not everyone knows their pregnant by 3 months.
Stranger: and if they don't then they're stuck with it
Stranger: she should get tested
You: That's not taking the mother's freedom of choice away?
Stranger: well it would at that point be murder
Stranger: when she has it, she can give it up for adoption
You: I thought there was nothing wrong with murder.
Stranger: not morally, but legally
You: Okay, so whatever the law says goes?
Stranger: lol you think otherwise?
You: Because the law says abortion is also okay after 3 months.
Stranger: it's not a choice. if you break the law, you go to jail or pay a fine.
Stranger: now it does yes,
Stranger: i disagree with both sides
You: Okay, so what's wrong with killing a 6-month fetus?
Stranger: it can think.
You: So can an adult.
Stranger: it now has the main human trait
You: But you said there's nothing wrong with murder.
Stranger: i feel like im running in circles lol
Stranger: LEGALLY it's prohibited
Stranger: MORALLY, fuck it
You: But LEGALLY it's okay to kill a 6-month fetus.
Stranger: i said i disagree
You: How can you disagree with it?
You: LEGALLY it's okay, and MORALLY all murder is fine.
Stranger: no morally, im indifferent
Stranger: which leaves it to legallity
You: But it's legal to kill a 6-month fetus.
You: What basis do you have to oppose killing said fetus.
Stranger: murder is illegal
You: Yes, but abortion is not.
Stranger: i never said the law is perfect
You: But without morality what do you have to compare the law with?
Stranger: but killing something that can't think is hardly murder
Stranger: i don't need anything. Legallity in itself is a self-justifying system in many cases
You: Okay.
Stranger: btw how old r u?
You: 17.
You: You disagree with the law on 3-9 month fetuses.
You: How so?
Stranger: i've stated it about 12 times. i can;t do it again
You: If it is both morally and legally acceptable.
Stranger: because if people say murder is illegal, i agree. If people say that women should not be stuck with children they can't afford, i agree
Stranger: this is a compromise
You: The law allows abortions at 4 months, and according to you morality allows murder at ANY age.
Stranger: ah 4 months is close enough
You: 6 months then.
Stranger: morality is not something you can argue
Stranger: it's why neither of us can win this arguement. you keep your extremist opinion, and refuse my compromise
You: I just want to know what you're basing this position on.
You: It's not law and it's not morality.
You: What's the third option?
Stranger: Just because i want it legal, doesn't mean it's not a legal position, and you're right, it's not moral
You: Huh?
Stranger: the law changes. this is the way i want it to be
Stranger: so that it is fair in all positions
You: Okay, so you're talking about what the law should be.
You: So what do you base this desire on?
You: Something outside the law, obviously.
Stranger: the law is used to keep fairness. i dont hold my opinion strongly. Frankly, i hope i never need abortion, but it's possible
You: Okay, so your opinion is based on fairness?
Stranger: yes.
You: Is it fair for a woman to be denied an abortion just because she found out she was pregnant too late?
Stranger: yes. she wasn't careful enough.
You: Is it fair for a woman to be denied an abortion at 2 and a half months??
Stranger: nope
You: she wasn't careful enough either.
You: both got pregnant.
Stranger: but the child didn't suffer
Stranger: he didnt feel anything
Stranger: therefore he didnt exist
You: Is abortion at 9 months fair if the child is anesthetized?
Stranger: no. it can still think
Stranger: it was alive
Stranger: that's like saying "is it ok to kill a human if he's asleep?"
You: And the 2-month baby is not alive?
Stranger: morally, sure, but legally, nope
Stranger: a fucking tree is alive
Stranger: doesnt make it special
You: Why does mental capacity make you special?
Stranger: because it differenciates you from a tree.
You: So does size and mobility.
Stranger: you cant be mobile without a brain
Stranger: and do u think anyone would care about you if you stood in the yard all damn day?
Stranger: no matter how big u are
Stranger: ive been on defense this whole arguement and it's kinda boring.
You: So what's so special about mental capability that distinguishes it from all the other differences between you and a tree?
You: Species also distinguishes us from a tree.
Stranger: because without it, you would not argue, you could not laugh, or cry or feel. you would not be human.
Stranger: Frankly i don't care if a braindead person dies
You: I would be human.
Stranger: not to me
You: Every cell in my body would still be screaming "Homo s. sapiens"
Stranger: the cells that can't speak. the ones that die all the time and don't amount to shit.
Stranger: people die all the time. might as well get used to it
Stranger: it will NEVER change
You: But it's not fair to kill people.
Stranger: how? death is unbias. IF you die because you pissed someone off, you paid the consequences
Stranger: if you die from cancer, that's unfair too
Stranger: death is random
You: So you think murder is fair but abortion at 5 months isn't?
Stranger: a living person has a chance to live.
You: A 3-month fetus is alive.
Stranger: it hasn't thought or experienced anything
Stranger: it doesnt hurt
Stranger: it doesnt care
You: A person under anesthesia doesn't hurt or care either
Stranger: ive adressed this already
Stranger: besides, why not kill someone under anesthesia? he's lived.
You: Okay, so all that matters is if you've experienced something?
Stranger: it's fair to the mother that she gets a chance to escape poverty, and it's fair that the child get's a chance to live.
Stranger: there is no other way that offers both
Stranger: you've taken the side of a fetus over a human
You: What species would you class a human's fetus as?
Stranger: i mean a real person
You: The mother who finds out she's pregnant at 4 months has no chance to escape poverty.
Stranger: not a mass of flesh that isn't even alive
Stranger: well that mother had a chance and blew it
You: If the fetus isn't alive, why does it need food?
You: The fetus that's killed at 2.9 months gets no chance to live.
Stranger: need i use the tree analogy again?
You: A tree is alive.
Stranger: would you save it over a human?
You: No, I wouldn't.
You: What species would you class a human's fetus as?
Stranger: human, but it's more similar to a tree.
Stranger: but why not save a tree over a human?
You: We've established that the fetus is human
You: And is alive.
Stranger: a tree is alive
You: A tree is not human.
Stranger: so?
Stranger: what makes u better than a tree? u asked the same question.
You: I'm not better than a tree. I only ask for protection from my fellow humans.
You: If I was a tree, I'd save the tree over the human.
Stranger: so your moral code is exclusive?
You: My moral code applies to intraspecies conduct.
Stranger: so it is
Stranger: so you're looking at species. i look at individuals
You: Individuals make up a species.
Stranger: i'd rather save my dog than some people. is that morally wrong?
You: In addition, "species" is a characterisitc of individuals
You: yes
Stranger: so you are bias
You: Not horribly wrong, though.
Stranger: doesnt matter
You: I'm more concerned about direct aggression.
You: If you would choose to kill a person over a dog, that is immoral.
Stranger: i dont care. your moral code says save humans over animals, even though you say you are not better and humans are no better
Stranger: in my world, that is called hypocracy
You: No, my moral code says to prefer my own species.
You: If I was a dog, I'd save the dog.
Stranger: but you're not a dog, you're not a fetus, and you're not a mother
You: I used to be a fetus.
You: I am a human.
Stranger: the mother was a fetus too
You: Yes, and I wouldn't kill her either.
You: Thus, my morality tells me to stick up for other humans.
Stranger: but u prefer the fetus over the mother
You: No.
You: If a fetus wanted to abort his mother, I'd standup for the mother.
Stranger: it's death u have a problem with
You: I have a problem with violence.
Stranger: what do u believe happens after death?
You: I don't know.
Stranger: what do u think?
You: I've never died.
Stranger: well you've never been a mother, you cant remember being a fetus and you've never died...
You: I don't remember being 2 either, but I can still say it's wrong to kill toddlers.
Stranger: but you'd kill every toddler in the world if it meant saving yourself
You: So what?
Stranger: it's a strawman
Stranger: your moral code is easily dropped
You: I don't think rationally under pressure.
You: That's why we have laws.
Stranger: now you've had 2 hours, and you've not convinced me
You: If we could trust people to be moral, we wouldn't need the law.
Stranger: give me one reason why killing babies is wrong?
You: Just one?
Stranger: yep .one irrefutable one
You: It deprives them of their future, as does murder at any age.
Stranger: but why is that matter?
You: Why does it matter that a tree can't think?
You: Killing babies also goes against the biological origin of the very concept of morality.
Stranger: lol biological origin?
You: Yes.
You: Morality evolved as a survival instinct for species.
Stranger: instincts and morals are not the same
You: Without the instincts we'd have no concept of "right" and "wrong"
Stranger: you know right from wrong because you were told
Stranger: not because you evolved
You: Even babies have morals.
You: Animals too.
Stranger: no they don't
Stranger: they have instincts
You: And where exactly did my parents get the knowledge of right and wrong?
Stranger: from their parents
You: Where did the concept originate?
Stranger: and over time, as it benefitted more people, they made up better moralities
Stranger: and passed them on like a religion
You: Where did my grandparents learn of morality?
Stranger: sorry, but im done this retarded conversation. bye :)
Your conversational partner has disconnected.
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