Thursday, July 15, 2010


You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: Abortion makes me sad. =(
Stranger: hello
Stranger: oh
Stranger: why
You: It's a sad thing.
Stranger: why's that?
You: What do you mean?
Stranger: Why is it sad?
You: Same reason it's sad when anyone dies.
Stranger: Everyone has to die.
You: It's still sad when they die, especially if they were killed.
Stranger: Some people would argue that fetuses aren't people, so its not really murder
You: How can they not be people?
You: They're human beings.
Stranger: Is an egg a chicken?
You: No, but some have chicks inside them.
Stranger: i think the argument goes
Stranger: that since they don't have a working brain they aren't considered people
Stranger: just something that could grow into a person
You: So is Sarah Palin not a person? ;)
Stranger: like an egg can grow into a chicken, but is still different
Stranger: hahaha
You: Why should someone be discriminated against based on their mental capacities?
You: I mean a newborn acts purely on instincts for quite a while, no smarter than plenty of non-human animals.
Stranger: but it has a brain, and can feel pain and fear
Stranger: so it's inhumane to harm or kill a newborn
You: So can non-human animals.
Stranger: whereas a fetus can't feel pain for the majority of its gestation period
You: Wait, is it okay to kill someone that can't feel pain?
Stranger: is not feeling pain the only thing wrong with them?
You: Yeah.
You: Well, not necessarily.
Stranger: they're still thinking, living beings
Stranger: unless you're talking about someone who is brain dead
You: Okay, so if someone was under anesthesia, can they be killed?
Stranger: can they? yeah. should they? no.
You: Why not?
Stranger: because anesthesia is different than brain death
Stranger: or not having a brain
You: I'm talking about general anesthesia.
Stranger: yeah
Stranger: your brain is still working under anesthesia
Stranger: it's subdued
Stranger: and you aren't conscious
You: Working, yes, but not at a very high level.
Stranger: which is still a level up froma fetus
You: So, are cows people?
Stranger: whose brain stem doesn't even work
Stranger: no
Stranger: they're cows
You: Why not? They feel pain and fear.
Stranger: they aren't self aware and sentient to the level we are
You: Neither are newborns.
Stranger: newborns are surprisingly smart, smarter than you'd likely give them credit
You: Not right out of the womb.
Stranger: yeah actually
You: For a while, they act purely on instinct.
Stranger: they begin soaking up information as soon as they're out
You: Yes, true.
You: Awareness and self-awareness are different.
Stranger: of course
You: A cow also soaks up information.
Stranger: yes
You: Newborns, the severely retarded, sever Alzheimer's patients, all aren't self-aware.
Stranger: Yep
Stranger: but fetuses are neither
Stranger: in the first, and part of the second trimester at least
You: Are newborns, the severely retarded, severe Alzheimer's patients not people?
Stranger: they're clearly people
You: Why?
You: They're not self-aware.
Stranger: is that a crucial part of being human?
You: You seem to think it is.
Stranger: i'd say that structurally they are human
Stranger: so they're people
Stranger: a fetus is not structurally a human
Stranger: it's getting there
Stranger: but it isn't there yet
You: What do you mean "structurally"?
You: The fetus is just like what a human at that age should be.
Stranger: has, y'know, all the parts of a human in place
Stranger: a fetus doesn't have a brain for like the first trimester
Stranger: the first few days its just a mass of cells with no human like shape at all
You: Development is a continuum.
Stranger: yeah it is
Stranger: but there has to be a line some where
Stranger: where you say "this is human, this isn't"
You: Scientifically, it's a human from the beginning.
Stranger: other wise you could count an egg and seperate sperm as human, since they're a step in the development
You: No, they are not.
Stranger: and so masturbating and ovulation are murder
You: The egg is part of the mother and the sperm is part of the father.
You: When they join, they form a zygote, the first stage of development.
Stranger: with out those stages, you couldn't have the "first stage"
Stranger: so they're in the contiuum
You: No, they're not. The zygote is a new organism.
You: BRB
You: if u have to leave, email me
You: [email]
Stranger: no, i'm good for a while
Stranger: but the point you're bringing up
Stranger: if i may
Stranger: is that at the point of conception, a new organism is formed
Stranger: and this new organism is, through all stages of development, a human being
Stranger: so destroying it at any stage is murder
Stranger: am i understanding you correctly?
You: to kill the organism at any stage is homicide
You: murder is illegal by definition
Stranger: Okay.
Stranger: I can see your point.
Stranger: And what I think it boils down to is that everyone has their own line, where they say what a human is.
Stranger: It's a bit arbitrary, but that's where the disagreements come from.
You: Some draw the line of personhood after birth.
Stranger: Yeah.
Stranger: And so to them, abortion is just destroying some worthless organism.
You: Same with infanticide.
You: Some think newborns aren't smart enough for rights.
Stranger: I think they're fairly uncommon, but yeah.
You: Peter Singer, for instance.
Stranger: Some people don't even appreciate an adult's right to live.
Stranger: Serial killers, people like that.
You: Yeah.
You: Have you heard MLK's quote about restraining the heartlesS?
Stranger: Can't say I have.
You: ok just a sec
You: "Now the other myth that gets around is the idea that legislation cannot really solve the problem and that it has no great role to play in this period of social change because you've got to change the heart and you can't change the heart through legislation. You can't legislate morals. The job must be done through education and religion. Well, there's half-truth involved here. Certainly, if the problem is to be solved then in the final sense, hearts must be changed. Religion and education must play a great role in changing the heart. But we must go on to say that while it may be true that morality cannot be legislated, behavior can be regulated. It may be true that the law cannot change the heart but it can restrain the heartless. It may be true that the law cannot make a man love me but it can keep him from lynching me and I think that is pretty important, also.


So there is a need for executive orders. There is a need for judicial decrees. There is a need for civil rights legislation on the local scale within states and on the national scale from the federal government."

~ Exerpt from a speech by Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.
Stranger: He was a pretty smart dude, that MLK
You: Yeah.
You: We need to agree upon who's a person (and biology seems like the best way), because otherwise nobody is safe.
Stranger: And I think for the most part, we have.
Stranger: Seeing as how killing a person from the third trimester up is illegal everywhere
You: Not true.
Stranger: it's a period of 6 months that people are fighting over now
Stranger: well, a good number of places
Stranger: unless the mother's life is in danger, I think
You: In the US, it's mother's "health", which has been defined to include pretty much any possible reason for abortion, including socioeconomic ones.
Stranger: That's pretty vague.
You: Yeah, it's a loophole so big you could drive a Death Star through it.
Stranger: And I would definitely be for tightening that up.
Stranger: especially now that maternity wards have gotten advanced enough that you could be born a month early and still stand a good chance
You: More than a month, even,\
You: the young4est premmie to survive was 21.5 weeks, way short of 38
You: i have to go soon. can u email me?
Stranger: I'm guessing that was pretty uncommon though
Stranger: sure
Stranger: i'm [email]
You: usually we wait until full term
Stranger: feel free to drop me a line
You: ok
You: cya
You have disconnected.
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