Sunday, February 14, 2010

Ugh, go back to high school.

You're now chatting with a random stranger. Say hi!
You: hi
You: What's your stance on abortion?
Stranger: pro choice
You: Why?
You: What does that mean?
Stranger: It means that women should be able to choose whether they get an abortion or not.
You: So, pro-choice of the mother.
You: The offspring gets no choice.
Stranger: right
You: Why not?
Stranger: Are you just here to argue with me?
Stranger: Or do you actually want an intellegent debate?
You: I'm here to better understand your viewpoint, and perhaps one of us will move the other's opinion.
You: I believe that none of us should have the choice to take the life of another innocent human being.
Stranger: All right. Well, my opinion won't be swayed but I will listen.
You: My opinion may be swayed if I am presented with a good enough argument.
You: In fact, a good argument WILL sway me.
You: I have simply not yet received a good argument.
You: I'm young, though, so I haven't heard every argument.
Stranger: Well, I believe in choice for a few reasons. Most of them get around to the same thing though. There are two main reasons I suppose. I believe that if a child is going to have a bad life, say in a ghetto, foster care, or with an unfit mother, it would be better if the child not have to go through that. I, of course, don't believe that a mother should just abort her child for no reason. The other is that, if those circumstances are present, there are already so many more children than needed that have to live in those environments and want better lives.
You: Okay, let's take your first argument first.
You: Do you believe that that same justification would apply after birth?
You: Would it be okay to kill a newborn to save him from a bad life?
You: (or her)
Stranger: Well, no, because if it's already born, there's nothing you can do about it. That's why I believe, in some cases, that abortion would be...well not "helpful" per say, but the best option.
You: Why is there nothing you can do about it? Birth does not render the offspring immortal; it is still possible to kill newborns.
Stranger: Also, there aare cases of rape and incest that a child should not have to be born because of.
You: Less than 5% of abortions happen for that reason.
Stranger: Yes, but the law prevents that. That is why I believe that abortion could be the best option.
You: I'm asking what YOU think, not what the law says.
You: Do YOU think that it's okay to kill a newborn for the same reason you'd kill the unborn?
Stranger: Well, once they are born, there's nothing allowed to be done.
You: Okay, so you think that whatever the law allows or does not allow, that's what's right?
Stranger: Currently, I suppose? Once a child is born it is in the world, and it should not be allowed to be killed.
You: Why shouldn't it?
You: What makes the baby before and after birth different?
Stranger: Because they are actually born then and the mother chose not to abort it. It has already happened.
You: What has already happened?
Stranger: They have already been born. When the babies are in the womb they are not yet born, they haven't seen the world, technically, their life hasn't started yet.
You: So, seeing the world makes it wrong to kill you?
Stranger: No. What I mean, is that they have not yet been born. They are not yet born
You: What about birth makes it wrong to kill the baby before, but not after, the 8-inch trip down the birth canal?
Stranger: They are then people of the world, that's when their life actually starts.
You: So, the baby is not alive before birth?
Stranger: Not really alive. After birth they no longer need to rely on their mother for food, breathe, and heartbeat.
You: Sorry, but if an organism is not alive, it does not need food.
Stranger: They are an independent being in a way, because they no longer are part of their mother, but a separate organism.
You: So, you think that the fetus is literally a part of his or her mother?
Stranger: Technically, yes
You: So, technically, a pregnant woman would have 4 arms?
Stranger: No, just think of the baby as being inside of her body. The baby relies on it's mother for everything. It's like an organ.
You: Okay, so would you say that the many organisms inside of you right now are part of you?
Stranger: Yes.
Stranger: But,, not really, because the baby is literally attached to it's mother, like an organ
You: So, being attached to an organism makes you part of that organism?
You: Is a leech part of its host organism?
Stranger: No, like an organ. It's not a thing of detachment. It's that the baby is litteraly functioning with it's mother and it not technically detachable. If the mother gets AIDS let's say, so does the baby
You: So, the fetus is an organ of his or her mother?
Stranger: It's LIKE an organ.
You: Then why say "I, of course, don't believe that a mother should just abort her child for no reason."?
You: By your logic, she can have as many abortions as she wants for no reason at all.
Stranger: I just think it's stupid.
Stranger: I just think that the mother should have a good reason.
You: If I want to have my leg removed, that's my choice.
You: I don't need a reason because it's my body.
Stranger: But at the same time, after a while, the fetus will become a creature, so in my opinion it is just better if there is a good reason. And by saying that you just proved my point that it should be the mother's choice.
You: Every cell in my body, through cloning, can come a creature.
You: ^become
Stranger: Yeah, through cloning. The fetus has potential naturally. But, it should still be the mother's choice to let that potential grow because it's not an independent being yet.
You: True, the fetus is not an independent creature, but he or she is still a creature.
You: The mother and offspring are in a temporary symbiotic relationship.
Stranger: But he or she relies on it's mother and is part of her, and therefore she should be able to do as she pleases with it.
You: No, he or she relies on his or her mother, but it NOT part of her.
You: HE or she is a separate, but not independent, organism.
You: S: (n) embryo, conceptus, fertilized egg (an animal organism in the early stages of growth and differentiation that in higher forms merge into fetal stages but in lower forms terminate in commencement of larval life)
Stranger: one moment. give me a chance to read it.
You: Medical Dictionary

5 entries found for embryo. Select an entry and then click 'Go'.

Main Entry: em·bryo
Pronunciation: em-br-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural em·bry·os
1 archaic : a vertebrate at any stage of development prior to birth or hatching
2 : an animal in the early stages of growth and differentiation that are characterized by cleavage, the laying down of fundamental tissues, and the formation of primitive organs and organ systems; especially : the developing human individual from the time of implantation to the end of the eighth week after conception -- compare FETUS
Stranger: What is your point? That definition proves nothing but the fact that you can copy and paste.
You: It proves that the scientific and medical community accept the fact that the embryo or fetus is an organism
Stranger: It is an organisms technically, but it is part of the mother's body. Once again, it relies completely and wholly on the mother.
You: An organism cannot, by definition, be part of another organism.
Stranger: My view is that it is part of the mother. If the mother dies, it dies, while a leech can simply find another host animal.
You: An embryo can also find a new host. Are you not aware of embryo adoption and transplant?
Stranger: I am aware, yet it is the same process of being completely reliant on the mother that is in inside of.
You: The embryo can be transplanted into another mother after that.
You: And so on.
Stranger: But once again, it is still COMPLETELY reliant on the mother. It is a part of her.
You: Okay, what about after the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb?
Stranger: Then, as I have stated before, it is it's own independent organism
You: Okay.
You: What if the fetus would need a mechanical incubator?
Stranger: What do you mean?
You: For example, I was born prematurely and needed to be kept in a glass box with pure oxygen pumped in and everything.
You: Maybe it was a plastic box, IDK
You: I was not existing entirely independently.
Stranger: Well if you're born prematurely, you have still been born and are no longer part of the mother.
You: If I had instead not been born, and was still at my mother's womb at the time, would I be part of her body?
Stranger: Yes. If you are in your mother you are part of her body! o_o
You: You just said if the fetus could survive outside the womb he is a separate organism!
Stranger: You just said "if I was still in my mother's womb"
You: Yes, inside the womb. But capable of surviving outside.
You: You: Okay, what about after the fetus is capable of surviving outside the womb?
Stranger: Then, as I have stated before, it is it's own independent organism
Your conversational partner has disconnected.

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